20世纪有哪些最耻辱的战败？（一） [美国媒体]

What are some of the most humiliating war defeats of 20th century?

20世纪有哪些最耻辱的战败？（一）

回答一：
Duc Quyen, well-read in World War II and the Indochina Wars
“All we had to do was raise our voice a little bit and the Finns would obey. If that didn’t work we would fire one shot and they would put up their hands and surrender. Or so we thought.” - Nikita Khrushchev talked about the Winter War (1939-1940) between the Soviet Union and Finland.

“我们所要做的就是提高我们的声音，芬兰人将会服从。如果这不起作用，我们只要开一枪，他们就会举起手来投降。我们认为大概就是如此。”——尼基塔·赫鲁晓夫谈苏联和芬兰之间的冬季战争（1939年至1940年）

At first, the Soviets raised their voice a little bit. It didn’t work. They raised their voice some more - Stalin himself was brought to the meeting - still didn’t work. Finally, Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov lost his patience: “Since we civilians don’t seem to be making any progress, perhaps it’s the soldiers’ turn to speak”.

一开始，苏联人提高了他们的声音。它没有作用。他们又提高了一些嗓门——斯大林自己都参加了谈判——但仍然没有作用。最后，苏联外交部长莫洛托夫失去了耐心：“因为我们的和平努力似乎没有取得任何进展，或许是该轮到士兵们发言了”。

The Soviets fired one shot but the Finns categorically refused to surrender. The fact that total Finnish population (3.7 million) was 50 times smaller than total Soviet population (200 million) and 3 times smaller than Soviet Red Army strength (11 million) did not seem to bother the Finns. And so the two countries went to war.

苏联人开了一枪，但芬兰人断然拒绝投降。芬兰的人口（370万）比苏联人口（2亿）少50倍，甚至比苏联红军的规模（1100万）都小3倍，但这似乎并没有困扰芬兰人。于是两国开战了。

Despite overwhelming superiority in men, tank, artillery and aircraft, the Soviets failed to break thorough Finnish dogged defenses. Everywhere the aggressors ran into fierce resistance. The Finns were better led, better trained, better organized, well versed in winter warfare tactics and inflicted massive casualties on the enemy. Things got so bad for the Soviets that even the Finns were worried: “There are so many of them, and our country is so small, where will we find room to bury them all?”

尽管在人员、坦克、大炮和飞机上都占有压倒性的优势，苏联却没能突破芬兰顽强的防守。侵略者在任何地方都遇到了激烈的抵抗。芬兰人更有领导能力，训练有素，组织能力更强，精通冬季作战战术，并给敌人造成了巨大的伤亡。对苏联来说，事情变得非常糟糕，以至于连芬兰人都很担心：“有这么多的人，我们的国家太小了，我们在哪里可以找到埋葬他们的地方呢？”

Finnish soldiers on skis with reindeer, well equipped for winter warfare.

驯鹿雪橇上的芬兰士兵，他们拥有很好的冬季战争装备。

 

Three months later, when all the smoke had cleared and all the dust had settled, the Soviet Union seized 11% of Finnish territory but it came with a heavy price: 130,000 Soviets dead. The Finns suffered only about one-fifth of that number.

三个月后，当所有的硝烟散去，所有的尘埃落定之后，苏联占领了芬兰11%的领土，但它付出了沉重的代价：13万苏联人死亡。芬兰人则只遭受了相当于苏联五分之一的损失。

It was a stinging and humiliating Soviet defeat.

这是一场令人痛苦的、羞辱性的苏联式失败。

Edit: Some comments argue that the USSR achieved its objective so it was a costly victory rather than a defeat. Well let’s see:

编辑：一些评论认为，苏联实现了它的目标，所以这是一场代价高昂的胜利，而不是一场失败。让我们来看看：

During the negotiation phase, the Soviets demanded Finland to cede the Kalastajansaarento Peninsula, several islands in the Gulf of Finland and most of the Karelian Isthmus to create a buffer zone for the city of Leningrad which was only 30 km from the border.

在谈判阶段，苏联要求芬兰割让卡拉斯托亚-亚萨兰托半岛、芬兰海湾的几个岛屿，以及卡累利阿地峡的大部，为列宁格勒市建立一个缓冲区——它距离边境地带只有30公里。

However, once the Finns refused, negotiations failed and the two countries went to war, the Soviets - now pissed off - intended to overrun all of Finland within a week. The Soviet composer Dmitri Shostakovich was ordered to compose “Suite on Finnish Themes” to be performed as the marching bands of the Red Army would be parading through the Finnish capital Helsinki. They even prepared new street-signs written in Cyrillic for the streets of Helsinki. In reality, they never reached Helsinki and only got 11% of Finland.

然而，芬兰人拒绝了，谈判宣告失败，两国就开战了，苏联人现在很生气，打算在一周内占领芬兰的所有领土。苏联作曲家德米特里·肖斯塔科维奇受命创作“芬兰主题组曲”，作为红军将在芬兰首都赫尔辛基举行的游行的行进音乐。他们甚至还准备了用西里尔字母书写的新街道标志，放置在赫尔辛基的街道上。但现实是，他们从未到达赫尔辛基，只得到了芬兰领土的11%。

So no, the Soviets didn’t achieve their objective of the war. They waged a war to capture all of Finland, but despite suffering 5 times more casualties than the enemy, they only got 11% of it. It’s a military defeat, both in terms of objective and casualties.

所以答案是否定的，苏联没有实现他们的战争目标。他们发动了一场战争来占领整个芬兰，但是尽管经受了比敌人多5倍的伤亡，他们只得到了芬兰领土的11%。这是一场军事上的失败，无论是在目标上还是在伤亡方面。

Erik Painter
Oct 31, 2017 · 2 upvotes
The name “Molotov Cocktail” came from the Finns in this war. Molotov claimed they were not dropping bombs on the Finns but food supplies. the Finns began calling the air bombs Molotov bread baskets.

“莫洛托夫鸡尾酒”这个名字就是这场战争中的芬兰人取的。莫洛托夫声称他们没有向芬兰人投掷炸弹，而是空投了食物。芬兰人开始称这种从天而降的炸弹为莫洛托夫的面包篮。

"Molotov cocktails" were meant to repay Molotov's generous gift of bread with the reciprocal gift of an alcoholic beverage — "a drink to go with the food", they joked. They manufactured them with storm matches instead of rags. A mixture of ethanol, tar and gasoline to make a sticky fire.

他们开玩笑说，“莫洛托夫鸡尾酒”是用一种酒精饮料来回报莫洛托夫慷慨赠与的面包—— “美酒换食品”。他们用防风火柴而不是破布来制造它们。其中混合了乙醇、沥青和汽油，可以点燃一团黏糊糊的火。

 

Kelly La Rue
Jul 27, 2017 · 17 upvotes
The Soviet bumbling encouraged Hitler to believe defeating the Reds would be easy. His underestimation cost him heavily.

苏联笨手笨脚的样子鼓动希特勒去相信打败红军会很容易。他对红军的低估让他付出了沉重的代价。

Anthony Runfola
Jul 27, 2017 · 16 upvotes
Hitler would've actually won though if the plans were made by his generals and not himself.
If anything is was Hitler's foolishness that constituted the end of the Nazi war machine.

如果这些计划是由他的将军们制定的，而不是他自己，那么希特勒就会取得胜利。
如果说有什么的话，那就是希特勒的愚蠢，它导致了纳粹战争机器的终结。

Don Berrington
Jul 27, 2017 · 25 upvotes including Anthony Runfola
Perhaps the greatest insult by the British to Hitler was when they decided not to proceed with Operation Foxley - Wikipedia. This was a well planned operation for a sniper to assassinate him at his house in the Alps while he was out on one of his morning walks. But although the plan looked very likely to succeed they decided not to go ahead, largely because they considered him to be such an incompetent leader that the Third Reich would fall and the war end sooner if he remained in command.

也许英国人对希特勒最大的侮辱是当他们决定不继续进行福克斯利作战。这是一个精心策划的行动，一名狙击手准备在他进行晨间散步时在他位于阿尔卑斯山的家中暗杀他。但是，尽管这个计划看起来很有可能成功，但他们决定不继续推进，这主要是因为他们认为希特勒是一个无能的领导人，如果他继续执政，第三帝国将会垮台，战争就会结束。

Kelly La Rue
Jul 27, 2017 · 9 upvotes including Anthony Runfola
He’s been called the Allies greatest asset.

他被称为盟军最大的资产。

Vern Padgett
Aug 6, 2017 · 2 upvotes
Easy to say now. Would his generals have planned to invade the Rhineland in 1936?

现在怎么说都简单。他的将军们会在1936年就计划入侵莱茵兰吗？

David Ecale
Jul 27, 2017 · 14 upvotes including Duc Quyen
“It was a stinging and humiliating Soviet defeat.” And a green light for Barbarossa!

“这是一次令人痛苦和耻辱的苏联式失败。”还为巴巴罗萨计划大开绿灯！

Simon Faliks
Jul 28, 2017 · 2 upvotes
And an open door for the Siege of Leningrad

为包围列宁格勒敞开了大门

Quora User
Sep 4, 2017
No. Finland bordered Leningrad before. It would have objectively been worse.

不。之前芬兰与列宁格勒是接壤的。这在客观上会更糟。

Kenneth Sizer
Jul 27, 2017 · 35 upvotes including Duc Quyen
My guess is that this must be one of the cool things about being a Finn: Anyone anywhere who has studied military history has studied this war and holds Finns (and Finnish snipers) in very high regard.
Rules of War
    Never attack Russia in the winter.
    Never attack Finland in the winter; winter in Finland is 12 months long.

我的猜测是，这一定是芬兰人引以为豪的一件事：任何研究过军事历史的人都曾研究过这场战争，并对芬兰人（以及芬兰的狙击手）非常重视。
战争规则是：
永远不要在冬天攻击俄罗斯。
永远不要在冬天攻击芬兰；而芬兰的冬天有12个月。

Quora User
Sep 4, 2017 · 1 upvote
The last person to invade Russia during the winter was Charles XII and his problem was that he was an idiot, not that it was winter. Plus the battle happened in June/July anyways.
So I guess he took a winter vacation in Russia is more accurate.

最后一个在冬天入侵俄罗斯的人是查尔斯十二世，他的问题是：他是个白痴，而不是冬天。另外，这场战斗发生在6月和7月期间。所以我猜说他在俄罗斯度寒假更准确一点。

Vern Padgett
Aug 6, 2017 · 2 upvotes
How about those Swedish Mauser riflles. I have 4 of them. 6.5 x 55 mm. Very accurate and easy to fire.

那瑞典的毛瑟枪呢？我有4把，6.5 x 55毫米口径。它非常精准，并且容易击发。

Preston Ingalls
Jul 27, 2017 · 9 upvotes
This is also one of the contributing reasons Hitler was over confident with the Germans defeating the Russians after listening to their poor performance in the Winter War.

这也是希特勒在听闻苏联人在冬季战争中的拙劣表现之后对德国战胜俄国人抱有过份信心的一个原因。

Nick Goripow
Jul 27, 2017 · 25 upvotes
This war gave birth to the single most deadly sniper to have ever walked this earth. Simo H?y?. Over 500 confirmed kills, and more than 700 unconfirmed.

这场战争催生了有史以来最致命的一名狙击手——席摩·海赫。超过500人确认死于他的枪下，还有超过700人未经证实。

 

Vern Padgett
Aug 6, 2017 · 1 upvote
Amazing. And with a cheap Russian Mosin-Nagant rifle.

很神奇的。他用的还是一款廉价的俄罗斯步枪莫辛纳甘。

Linus Baer
Aug 28, 2017 · 1 upvote from Vern Padgett
Actually Simo used the finnish made M/28–30 rifle that had basically only the bolt left from russian rilfe.

事实上，他使用的是芬兰制造的M/28-30步枪，基本上只剩下螺栓是来自俄罗斯步枪的零部件。

Vern Padgett
Aug 28, 2017
Good info, thanks. I'm very familiar with the Swedish m/96 Mauser 6.5 x 55 mm but not the Finnish rifles.

很棒的消息，谢谢。我非常熟悉瑞典的M/96毛瑟6.5 x 55毫米口径步枪，但不是芬兰步枪。

Chuck Garen
Dec 18 · 1 upvote
I for one, disagree, this lacks all sorts of context.

我有一个不赞同的地方，这里缺乏各种各样的背景。

Khruschev’s claims such as this one was bullshit, in fact his claims about the Winter war are among the most questionable.

赫鲁晓夫的说法是一派胡言，事实上，他关于冬季战争的说法是最值得怀疑的。

The offer the Soviet Union made to Finland was returning them a large portion of Karelia in return for a smaller set of land-masses near Leningrad, areas that otherwise caused massive gaps in the defensive lines there for the obviously upcoming war with Germany. Finland has historically been the springboard for attacks on Russia.

苏联向芬兰提出的建议是返还给他们卡累利阿地峡的大部分地区，以此来换取列宁格勒附近的一小片区域，否则它将造成防线的巨大漏洞，这显然是为与德国即将到来的战争准备的。芬兰历来都是攻击俄罗斯的跳板。

The USSR did not just invade, that is a manipulation of the facts. After being a Swedish province for around 600 years, Finland was ceded to the Russian Tsar as a Grand Duchy in 1808. After the Russian Revolution of November 1917, Finland declared its independence on 6 December 1917, and this was recognized by Soviet Russia on 2 January 1918. Thus it was the USSR which allowed the then only formed Finland to even exist. After the Finnish revolution of 1918 had been crushed by a ‘white’ army under Baron Carl Mannerheim, with the help of German forces, the new right-wing Finnish government was formed and actively supported the armies of intervention which were attacking the young Soviet Union. Later it would seek to keep up these good relations with Germany when the nazis took power, as well as maintain more secretive support from Great Britain.

苏联不只是实施了入侵，这是对事实的歪曲。在成为瑞典的一个省份大约600年之后，芬兰在1808年被作为一个大公国割让给了俄国沙皇。1917年11月俄国革命之后，芬兰于1917年12月6日宣布独立，1918年1月2日，苏联承认了这一事实。因此，正是苏联允许当时独立的芬兰存在的。在1918年的芬兰革命被卡尔巴特海姆男爵率领的“白军”镇压之后，在德国军队的帮助下，新的右翼芬兰政府成立了，并积极支持攻击初生的苏联的干预军。后来，当纳粹掌权时，它将寻求与德国保持良好关系，并维持英国对其的秘密支持。

“During the Russian Civil War, the new Finnish government actively supported the Western nations in their attempt to destroy the Bolshevik regime. On occasion, they even allowed anti-Bolshevik military operations to be mounted from their territory”.

“在俄罗斯内战期间，新的芬兰政府积极支持西方国家企图摧毁布尔什维克政权。有时，他们甚至允许从他们的领土上发动反布尔什维克的军事行动。”

The Winter War was not a loss as suggested because its objective was not to capture Finland but to secure the land-mass needed to defend the Leningrad.

冬季战争并不是像人们所认为的一场失败，因为它的目标不是占领芬兰，而是为了确保保卫列宁格勒所需的土地。

To explain this fully would be a whole post in itself, so i’ll make it short:

为了解释这一点，它本身就会构成一个完整的帖子，所以我简短地概述如下：

The USSR was not intending to invade and never thought that “a shout” would make Finland cower. Khrushchev's statement is as pig-headed as his policies, and disregards the reality. The Soviet “loss” was due to the USSR never intending to invade Finland, having to mobilize troops in response to border provocations after inexplicably cancelled treaty agreements, just as there was going to be a resolution. Soviet tech was out-dated and they were attacking a massive defensive set-up designed by an experienced ex-general of the Russian army and possessing the advantages of home-field and defensive tactics (which provide lower losses). Add to that the fact that the USSR had to fight on a large front and move as a single line to prevent the more mobile Finns from encircling their troops, as had occurred during the Polish-Soviet war of 1922.

苏联不打算入侵芬兰，也从未想过通过“一声呐喊”会让芬兰畏缩。赫鲁晓夫的说法和他的政策一样愚蠢，并且罔顾了事实。苏联的“失败”是因为苏联从来没有打算入侵芬兰，在莫名其妙地取消了条约协议之后，它不得不动员军队来应对边境挑衅。苏联的技术已经过时了，他们攻击的是一个由经验丰富的俄罗斯军队的前将军设计的大规模防御系统，并且拥有主场和防守战术的优势（这保证了更少的损失）。除此之外，苏联不得不在一个大的战线上作战，组成一条防线前进，以阻止更多的机动的芬兰人包围他们的军队，就像1922年的波兰-苏联战争期间所发生的那样。

The loss is embarrassing only to those not well acquainted with its context and motivations,

这种失败只会让那些不太了解它的背景和动机的人感到尴尬。

George Orwell
Aug 4, 2017
The bravery of the Fighting Finns is one of the more unappreciated stories of WWII. At that time the Soviets were allegedly our allies and Finland would get no help from us. The only help they received (please correct me if this is inaccurate) was from 6,000 volunteer Norwegian and Swedish soldiers. The weaponry they had was built around defensive posturing only so they were ill-equipped to take advantage on the battlefield when the opportunity presented itself. Yet the Finns fought the Soviets toe-to-toe, incurring 320,000 Soviet casualties (dead, wounded and missing) to their own 70,000. The Finns have made their own movie of the Winter War, but I've always wish the U.S. would have made one.

在二战中，芬兰人的勇敢是最不受欢迎的故事之一。当时，苏联被认为是我们的盟友，而芬兰得不到我们的帮助。他们得到的唯一帮助（如果这种说法是不准确的，请纠正我）来自6000名挪威和瑞典士兵。他们所拥有的武器是建立在防御态势的基础上的，所以当机会出现时，他们装备不足，无法在战场上占据优势。然而，芬兰人与苏联人进行了面对面的战斗，造成了32万名苏联人的伤亡（包括死亡、受伤和失踪人员），他们自己的伤亡是7万人。芬兰人已经制作了一部他们自己的冬季战争电影，但我一直希望美国能拍出一部来。

Yefim Galkine
Aug 5, 2017
Except that if they had wanted to take Helsinki, they could have, as the Finnish defenses basically no longer existed by that point.
The war was to secure the border, not to gain a hostile captive population right next to Leningrad.

除非他们想要占领赫尔辛基，他们本来可以做到的，因为芬兰的防御基本上已经不存在了。这场战争的目的是保卫边境，而不是在列宁格勒附近抓获充满敌意的俘虏。

Michael Yasuko
Jul 27, 2017 · 3 upvotes
Actually, the loss is even worse in terms of casualties for the Soviet Army. They initially gave a death toll of 48.000, only to revise it to 70.000, 100.000, 126.000, and now 167.000. In reality, probably over 200.000 Soviet soldiers died versus Finnish losses of 25.000. The terrible performance of the USSR contributed to Hitler’s invasion.

事实上，在伤亡方面，苏联军队的损失更惨重。他们最初给出的死亡人数为4万8000人，但后来将其修改为7万人，10万人，12万6000人，现在是16万7000人。在现实中，可能有超过20万名苏联士兵死亡，而芬兰的损失为2万5000人。苏联的糟糕表现导致了希特勒的入侵。

Jay Faulkner
Dec 12
What is worse, it seemed to convince Hitler that the strength of the USSR was a mere Potemkin village. He said something along the lines of: once the German military kicks in the door, the entire rotting edifice will collapse. In other words it brought the hellish experience of war with the Nazis onto the Soviet people.

更糟糕的是，它似乎让希特勒相信，苏联的力量仅仅是一个“波将金村”。他说了一些类似的话：一旦德国军队踏入大门，整个腐朽的大厦就会坍塌。换句话说，它给苏联人民带来了与纳粹的地狱般的战争经历。

Andrew Eldon
Jul 27, 2017 · 2 upvotes
It’s probably not authentic, but I remember reading about a Soviet general who supposedly said, when looking at the territory-versus-casualty figures at the end of the Winter War, “We have gained almost enough ground to bury our dead”

这可能不是真的，但我记得读到一位苏联将军的话，他说，当我们看到在冬季战争结束时的领土和伤亡数字时，“我们已经获得了足够的土地来埋葬我们死亡的士兵了”。

Paul V. Bolotoff
Jul 30, 2017
You are missing a point. Finland wasn’t a major objective for the USSR. It was one of many. The USSR hadn’t dispatched most of their armed forces to Finland, only a small fraction. Yes, the Soviet authorities underestimated the Finns. They put up a great fight, but the winter was over and in a month or two their defences would collapse should the Soviets continue their advance. Although it was no longer necessary as another great war was breaking out loose. Stalin knew that Hitler was about to seize Denmark and Norway and the British wouldn’t tolerate this most likely. France was the next target. Stakes went much higher.

你漏掉了一点。芬兰并不是苏联的主要目标。它是苏联许多目标中的一个。苏联并没有派遣大部分的武装部队到芬兰，只是一小部分。是的，苏联当局低估了芬兰人。他们进行了一场大规模的战斗，但是冬天已经过去了，在一两个月的时间里，如果苏联继续前进，他们的防御将会崩溃。尽管这不再是必要的，因为另一场伟大的战争正在爆发。斯大林知道希特勒将要占领丹麦和挪威，而英国人不会容忍这种可能性。法国是下一个目标。它的风险更高。

P.S. While the USSR seized only 11% of Finnish territory which may seem just a little bit, there was Vyborg (Viipuri) located. The 2nd largest city of Finland.

虽然苏联只占领了芬兰11%的领土，它似乎只是芬兰领土的一小部分，但其中却有维堡。它是芬兰的第二大城市。

Sng Kok Joon Leonard
Aug 11, 2017
You’re right, it wasn’t a major objective for them, so they only sent a million men. That a mere one third of those sent died in the war is peripheral, a drop in the ocean to the Soviet military juggernaut.

你是对的，这不是他们的主要目标，所以他们只派了上百万的人。在战争中，只有三分之一的人死于战争，这对苏联军事力量而言只是沧海一粟。

Paul V. Bolotoff
The Soviets sent 425 thousand initially expanded to 760 thousand by the war’s end. 127 thousand KIA, MIA, dead of wounds and frost. The Finns had 265 thousand troops deployed to well prepared defensive positions when the war started. That’s why the first Soviet attacks failed. The Finns lost 26 thousand troops according to their sources.

一开始的时候，苏联派出了425万人，到战争结束时军队扩大到了760万人。有12万7000人阵亡、在战斗中失踪、死于重伤或严寒。当战争开始的时候，芬兰人已经部署了26.5万人的部队，准备好le 防御阵地。这就是为什么苏联的第一次进攻失败了。根据芬兰人提供的资料，他们只损失了2600名士兵。

Linus Baer
Aug 28, 2017 · 1 upvote
The russian “first attacks” lasted from beginning of december to 15th of february. Then they made the breakthrough in the Karelian istmus / Mannerheim line. Also they were not stopped in their “drive to cut finland in half” by well made defensive positions, but by finnish counter attacks and motti tactis. See 163rd and 44th divisions fate in winter war.

俄罗斯的“第一次攻击”从12月开始一直持续到2月15日。然后他们突破了曼纳林防线。同时，他们也没有因为了精心准备的防御阵地而被阻止，而是被芬兰的反击和莫提战术所阻止。参见第163师和第44师在冬季战争中的命运。

What is true is that the Soviets most likely did stop their attack and agreed to the peace deal because Stalin was afraid that the Western-Allies would join Finland and drive Soviets to war against the Western allies.

事实是，苏联很有可能停止了进攻，同意签署和平协议，因为斯大林担心西方盟国会加入芬兰一方，并迫使苏联与西方盟国开战。

Nevertheless; red army was supposed to be the world’s leading war machine, with most men, airplanes and tanks. It turned out to be a poor fighting machine that only slaughtered its soldiers for nothing in the dark cold finnish winter.

不过，红军被认为是世界上最庞大的战争机器，拥有最多的士兵、飞机和坦克。事实证明，这是一架弱得可怜的战斗机器，在寒冷的芬兰冬季，它只会屠杀己方的士兵。

Winter war also prepared finland for the retaliation in the continuation war. For this the Russians can only blame themselves.

冬季战争也为芬兰在持续战争中的报复行动做好了准备。因此，俄罗斯人只能怪自己。

Paul V. Bolotoff
Aug 28, 2017
Those first attacks were in December and early January until the weather conditions deteriorated greatly to -40 °C or so. The Red Army stopped their offensive to receive supplies, reinforcements, winter clothing and training with skiing. Their resumed offensive in February was prepared much better.

第一次袭击发生在12月和1月初，直到天气状况严重恶化到零下40度左右。红军停止了进攻，接受补给、增援、冬季服装和滑雪训练。他们在2月份重新开始的进攻准备得更好。

The motti tactics was efficient to the north of Ladoga Lake. It was pretty much a trench warfare on the Karelian Isthmus with occasional attacks and counter-attacks until February.

在拉多加湖北部，莫提战术是有效的。在2月之前，这几乎是卡累利阿地峡上的一场堑壕战，偶尔会有攻击和反击行动。

The Red Army wasn’t prepared for winter warfare. Their casualties due to frostbite were higher than to actual combat. Lesson learnt. The Germans verified it during the Battle of Moscow.

红军还没有准备好应对冬季战争。他们因冻伤而造成的伤亡比实际战斗的伤亡要高。这一教训被吸取了。德国人在莫斯科战役中的遭遇证实了这一点。

Linus Baer
Aug 28, 2017
In some way i believe winter war really did spare a lot of Russian lives, in the end. They tested t-34 and KV-1 & 2 there, took submachine gun more seriously in consideration and also did understand the horrible situation in their army. All these then helped them to win against germany later on.
So it showed to Germans that the soviet union was not the unwinnable juggernaut but also showed the soviets that they need to fox things and fast.

在某种程度上，我认为，到最后，冬季战争确实让很多俄罗斯人丧命了。他们在那里测试了T-34和KV-1和KV-2坦克，更认真地考虑了冲锋枪的用途，也了解了他们军队的可怕状况。所有这些都帮助他们在以后的战争中战胜了德国。
因此，它向德国人展示了苏联并不是一个无法战胜的强大力量，同时也向苏联表明了他们需要快速地解决问题。

Kenneth Lau
Jul 27, 2017 · 1 upvote
“There are so many of them, and our country is so small, where will we find room to bury them all?”
I'm keeping this story as a response to any topic about most epic statements.
That just sounds so ba-dass

“有这么多的人，我们的国家太小了，我们在哪里可以找到埋葬他们的地方呢？”
我把这个故事作为对任何关于史诗性描述的话题的回应。
这听起来非常的混蛋

Sng Kok Joon Leonard
Aug 11, 2017
The more appropriate term is Pyrrhic victory. Objectives change in war all the time, defeat is determined based on who surrenders.

更恰当的说法是得不偿失的胜利。目标在战争中是不断变化的，失败是由哪一方投降来决定的。

Dinesh Bora
Jul 27, 2017 · 3 upvotes
I believe the proper term is a pyrrhic victory.

我相信正确的说法是皮洛士式的（得不偿失的）胜利。

Kevin Fox
Jul 27, 2017 · 2 upvotes
For this aggression, The Soviets were thrown out of the League of Nations.

因为这次侵略，苏联被赶出了国际联盟。

Le Hao
Jul 27, 2017 · 1 upvote
They’re the country that makes Nokia, so this isn’t surprising.

芬兰是制造出诺基亚的国家，所以这并不奇怪。

Victor Cadavid
Jul 27, 2017 · 2 upvotes
This war was also known as “The Simo Hayha event”. 250+ confirmed Kills.

这场战争也被称为“席摩·海赫事件”。有超过250人证实被他杀死。

Maurice Gull
Aug 6, 2017
Of course, in the mid-30’s, Stalin ‘purged’ his Officer Corps, executing some for treason (so-called), and exiling many to Siberia. One estimate I read was 85% of the Corps were affected. Suitable question: who the heck, then, were leading the Red Army when they tackled the Finns in the Winter War, and, later, the Germans, when they invaded in June of 1941? Obvious answer: no one of consequence, since the Russians got mangled badly. Stalin, fortunately for himself, had enough divisions and dedicated officers to rebound in time to beat back the Nazi armies, aided, of course, by his best aide: General Winter.

当然，在30年代中期，斯大林“清洗”了他的军官团，处决了一些（所谓的）叛国者，并把许多人流放到西伯利亚。我读到的一个估测数据是：85%的部队受到了影响。一个恰当的问题是：那么，当在冬季战争中对付芬兰人的时候，以及在1941年6月应对德国人入侵的时候，是谁在领导红军？显而易见的答案是：没有任何重要人物，因为俄罗斯人遭受到了严重的破坏。幸运的是，斯大林有足够的军队和勇于献身的军官，能够及时地反击并击退纳粹军队，当然，这也得到了他最好的助手——冬季将军的帮助。

Venkata Wunnava
Jul 26, 2017 · 4 upvotes
How is it a defeat if the objectives of the conflict have been either partially or completely achieved? Shouldn't we rather call it a costly victory?

如果冲突的目标已经部分或完全实现了，那它又是如何失败的呢？难道我们不应该称之为代价高昂的胜利吗？

Duc Quyen
Jul 26, 2017 · 10 upvotes
The objectives of war and negotiation were different. During negotiation, the USSR wanted to annex part of Finnish territory to act as a buffer zone for Leningrad which was only 30 km away from the border. The Finns refused.
Once the war began, Soviet objective became capturing all of Finland. The famous composer Dmitri Shostakovich was ordered to write a theme to be performed as the marching bands of the Red Army would be parading through the Finnish capital Helsinki. But the Finns put up too fierce resistance so the Soviets had to contend with the bare minimum gain.
It was a Soviet defeat.

战争和谈判的目标是不同的。在谈判过程中，苏联希望吞并芬兰领土的一部分，作为列宁格勒的缓冲地带，此地距离边境只有30公里。但芬兰人拒绝了。
战争一开始，苏联的目标就占领了整个芬兰。着名的作曲家德米特里·肖斯塔科维奇受命创作一个组曲，以备红军芬兰首都赫尔辛基游行时使用。但是芬兰人的抵抗太过激烈，所以苏联不得不为最低限度的利益而战。
这是苏联的失败。

Mark Cards
Jul 26, 2017 · 9 upvotes
Finland gave up a lot of their industrial zone and displaced more than 11 percent of their population, even though it was only a small fraction of territory it was very very valuable to the fine. It's like if the USA has to give up New York City and people said it's ok, New York City is only 3 percent of the population of the country and only .00003 percent of the land, it's not a big deal.

芬兰放弃了很多工业区，超过了11%的人口流离失所，尽管这只是一小部分领土，但是对芬兰而言却非常有价值。这就像美国必须放弃纽约，人们说它是没问题的，纽约市只占全国人口的3%，而且领土只占美国的00003%，这不是什么大问题。

Sam Koxikosis
Jul 27, 2017
Oddly enough, no one declared war on the Soviets for being all agressive, and wouldn't be the last time either.

奇怪的是，没有人向苏联宣战，因为他们都很友好，这也不会是最后一次。

Sng Kok Joon Leonard
Aug 11, 2017
There wasn’t any obligation for anyone to, no one in particular was guaranteeing the independence of the Finns. The Great Powers might choose not to live up to their official obligations, but they were certainly not going to live up to “non-obligations”.

任何国家都没有义务去特别保证芬兰人的独立。大国可能会选择不履行其官方义务，但它们肯定不会履行“非义务”。

Onni Hakkarainen
Jul 26, 2017
Objective of the war is up to debate, but its pretty clear that it was the same as in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, to occupy the country and establish military bases.
Finland and estonia especially needed occupation as Finland and Estonia had set up a barrage on the Gulf of Finland, something the soviets were completely unable to surpass thus barring Leningrad from supply by sea and access of the soviet navy to the baltic.
Some may say that the soviets managed to capture strategically important karelian isthmus but claiming finland would’ve agressed toward the USSR unprovoked, or even provoked is totally stupid as the finnish defence force was weak, lacked any offensive equipment or strategy and only managed to defend themselves trough great leadership and organization.

战争的目的是让双方回到谈判桌上，但很明显，它和爱沙尼亚、拉脱维亚和立陶宛一样，占领了这个国家并建立了军事基地。
芬兰和爱沙尼亚尤其需要占领，因为芬兰和爱沙尼亚在芬兰海湾建立了拦河坝，这是苏联完全无法超越的，从而封锁了列宁格勒从海上获得补给的渠道，以及苏联海军进入波罗的海的路径。
有些人可能会说，苏联试图获得具有重要战略意义的卡累利阿地峡，但是声称芬兰对苏联挑衅，甚至引发了这场战争，这种说法是愚蠢的，因为芬兰的防御力量是薄弱的，缺乏防御装备或战略，只能够通过良好的领导和组织保卫自己。

Steve Whipp
Aug 15, 2017 · 1 upvote
Did the Finns ever get their 11% back?

芬兰人后来拿回了他们11%的领土了吗？

James Johnston
Aug 24, 2017
I would suggest that the Soviet objective was creation of a buffer zone between Leningrad and the Finnish frontier. This was accomplished and probably saved Leningrad from capture when war broke out in 1941.

我认为，苏联的目标是在列宁格勒和芬兰边境之间建立一个缓冲区。这是在1941年战争爆发时完成的，它很可能拯救了列宁格勒。

John Smith
Jul 27, 2017 · 1 upvote
To be fair to the Soviets this was right after the Great Purge so the Red Army was led by inexperienced and younger servicemen. Feel that should be mentioned

公平而言，对于苏联，在大清洗之后，红军的确是由没有经验的年轻军人领导的。我觉得应该提一下这点

Nick Possum
Aug 2, 2017 · 1 upvote
USSR also lost in the court of international public opinion.

苏联也在国际舆论的法庭上败诉了。

Harveen Narulla
Aug 23, 2017
Russo-Japanese War, 1904–05
The first time an Asian country hammered a European power and handed it its a**…

1904年至1905年期间的日俄战争
这是亚洲国家首次击败欧洲强国，并给与了它沉重一击

Jorma Tuominen
Aug 29, 2017 · 1 upvote
There seems to be some confusion here. The original question concerned war defeat, which most people would surely understand as losing a war, but some might argue that losing a major battle could be counted as a war defeat. As to the Winter War 1939–40 between Soviet Union and Finland, it was Finland who ceded territory to the Soviets and not the other way - so it is quite silly to say that the Soviets lost. They won the overall war as expected but failed to win the decisive battles. The war was a disaster for both parties, but Soviet Union could afford one - for us Finns this was a real close shave. If you think that losing 11 % of one?s territory is peanuts, why don?t you give away 11 % of your own country and see.

这里似乎有些混乱。最初的问题是战争的失败问题，大多数人肯定会理解为输掉一场战争，但有些人可能会说，输掉一场大战役可以算作是一场战争的失败。至于1939年至1940年苏联和芬兰之间的冬季战争——是芬兰把领土割让给苏联，而不是相反——所以说苏联输了是相当愚蠢的。他们像预期的那样赢得了整场战争，但没能赢得决定性的战役。这场战争对双方来说都是一场灾难，但苏联可以负担得起——对我们芬兰人来说，这是一次真正的死里逃生的经历。如果你认为失去11%的领土是微不足道的，那你为什么不放弃自己国家的11%呢？

Alexander Malinowski
Aug 10, 2017
In addition Soviets convinced Hitler that they are weak and this was direct reason for Barbarossa. Russia is never so strong or so weak at it looks.

此外，苏联人还让希特勒相信他们是软弱的，这是发动巴巴罗萨行动的直接原因。俄罗斯从来没有看起来如此强大或如此虚弱过。

Andrew Gunner
Sep 4, 2017
You are not telling the whole story. You say the Soviets have 11 million soldiers as if it is relevant in any way. Anyone with common sense knows that’s not the way it works when you attack a small country like Finland, with its terrain; especially by a military like the USSR, which is mostly oriented on defensive warfare. The Russians have always been greater at defending and counter-attacking, than at initiating invasions (though they were frequently successful at that, as well, but against much smaller countries). If the USSR wanted to, they could’ve easily conquered all of Finland. They simply decided that it wasn’t worth so many lives. More importantly, the Russians gained more territory at the end of the war than they lost. So, calling it a military loss is an incorrect assessment. You could argue that it was a loss, but you can’t say that as if it were a fact.

你没有讲出整个故事。你说苏联有1100万士兵，就好像它有什么关系似的。任何有常识的人都知道，当你攻击一个像芬兰这样拥有特殊地形的小国时，这不是它的作战方式，尤其是像苏联这样的军事力量，它主要以防御战为导向。俄罗斯人在防守和反击方面总是比发动进攻更强（尽管他们在这方面也经常取得成功，但对小得多的国家也是如此）。如果苏联想要做到的话，他们很容易就能征服整个芬兰。他们只是觉得不值牺牲那么多的生命。更重要的是，在战争结束时，俄罗斯人获得的领土比他们失去的还要多。因此，称其为军事失败是一种错误的评估。你可以争辩说这是一种失败，但你不能说这是事实。

Arthur Stepanyan
Jul 27, 2017 · 1 upvote
Well, as everything in history, it’s complicated. At that time Russia and Nazi Germany were best friends. They already shared the spoils in Poland, and Finland (which was neutral in this case - remember I mentioned it’s complicated) was not able to count on Germany’s protection against Russian aggression. In the end, Russia got what it wanted, and the price it paid in human lives was irrelevant to Stalin. He killed millions of his own citizens for entertainment. Was it a defeat for Russia? Kremlin did not think so… It was a good test of Russian armed forces that demonstrated the weak points that needed improvement. By December 1941, Russian soldiers were better winterized than Germans, and Russian tank engine oil did not freeze while it was a common problem with German tanks. But i digress…

好吧，就像历史上的一切一样，这一事件很复杂。那时候，俄罗斯和纳粹德国是最好的朋友。他们已经在波兰瓜分了战利品，芬兰（在这个例子中是中立的——请记住我提到过，它很复杂）不能指望德国保护芬兰对抗俄罗斯的侵略行为。最终，俄罗斯得到了它想要的东西，而它在人员伤亡上付出的代价与斯大林无关。他为了取乐而杀害了数百万自己的公民。这是俄罗斯的失败吗？克里姆林宫不这么认为……这是对俄罗斯武装力量的一次很好的测试，指出了它需要改进的薄弱环节。到1941年12月，俄罗斯士兵比德国人更容易捱过冬季，俄罗斯的坦克引擎油也没有结冰，而这是德国坦克的常见问题。不过我跑题了……

Kolbrin Evitalik
Aug 11, 2017
You can’t forget the most badass part — Simo H?yh?, a Finnish farmer. Over 200 confirmed sniper kills and more than 700 unconfirmed kills. So terrifying that the Soviets called him “White Death” and the Finns ran “White Death” propaganda to scare the Soviets.

你不能忘记最坏的部分——席摩·海赫，一个芬兰农民。超过200人确认被他杀死，超过700人的死亡则未经证实。苏联人称他为“白色死神”，而芬兰人则用“白色死神”的宣传来恐吓苏联人，这太可怕了。

Quora User
Dec 3, 2017
Italy when it “held the dagger stuck (France) in the back” launched a disastrous attack against France and suffered 5000 casualties(killed,wounded and frostbite) against fewer than 400 casualties.Worse was to follow in Africa of course,but that better known.

意大利从背后捅了法国一道，发动了对法国的灾难性袭击，它自己经受了5000人伤亡损失（死亡、受伤和冻伤），造成对方的伤亡人数不到400人。当然，更糟糕的是在非洲，但这一情况更广为人知。

Aviad Tamir
Jul 27, 2017
Strangely enough, Finns did not bother to become Nazis allies (but when the power balance changed and Soviets demanded from Finns to escort all German troops out of Finland, Finns betrayed and attacked their Nazi allies).
Quite brave and consistent behavior…

奇怪的是，芬兰人并没有费心去成为纳粹的盟友（但是当权力平衡发生改变，苏联要求芬兰将所有德国军队护送出芬兰时，芬兰人背叛并攻击他们的纳粹盟友）。
非常勇敢和前后一致的行为……

Joshua Schmidl
Jul 27, 2017
And a defeat with terrible consequences: It made Nazi Germany catastrophically underestimate the capabilities of the Soviet Army.

它的失败带来了可怕的后果：它使纳粹德国灾难性地低估了苏联军队的能力。

Eric Weng
Jul 27, 2017
“There are so many of them, and our country is so small, where will we find room to bury them all?” Best burn of all time.

“有这么多的人，我们的国家太小了，我们在哪里可以找到埋葬他们的地方呢？”
最好全部烧掉

Kc Cheng
Aug 13, 2017
This speaks of the importance of discipline, training and strategy in war.

这说明了在战争中纪律、训练和战略的重要性。

Maxine Jensen
Aug 8, 2017
I agree with you! Eventually all Stalin could try to do was overrun the Finn’s by the weight of the Soviet Army. Yet all they got was 11% of their goal, believe me Hitler was watching and came to the belief that the Soviet Army would be easy to defeat. Within a year and a half Hitler did invade the Soviet Union - fortunately Russia would learn from their mistakes, after loosing so many soldiers. Stalin was not a military general, but he did find good generals, but that took time. The Finn’s forced Stalin to realize that he needed better generals. I hope I didn’t go too far off topic.

我同意你的说法！最终，斯大林所能做的一切就是通过苏联军队的巨大体量打败芬兰人。然而，他们所得到的只是他们的最初目标的11%，相信我，希特勒正在观望，并相信苏联军队很容易被打败。在一年半之后，希特勒入侵了苏联——幸运的是，在失去了这么多士兵之后，俄罗斯将从他们的错误中吸取了教训。斯大林不是一个军事将领，但他确实找到了优秀的将军，但这需要时间。芬兰迫使斯大林意识到他需要更好的将军。我希望我没有离题太远。

Adam Hintz
Jul 27, 2017
Simo H?yh? - Wikipedia
They had this dude. Seriously badass.

席摩·海赫
他们拥有这个家伙。真正的厉害角色。

Tilo Delau
Jul 27, 2017
Hmm. Well, did they get that 11% back after WWII? I don’t think so. That is not a defeat, that is a win.

嗯。他们在二战后拿回了那11%的领土吗？
我认为没有。这不是失败，这是一场胜利。

Michele Iovieno
Jan 15
they obtained their aims, even if at a high price. In spring 1940 they could have gone to Helsinki, as they were able to break through the finnish lines and Finnish government asked for terms.

他们达成了他们的目标，即使付出了高昂的代价。1940年春天，他们本可以兵临赫尔辛基，因为他们能够突破芬兰的防线，芬兰政府也要求他们提出条件。

Steve Theron
Aug 3, 2017
And in the process, they gained immortal glory, and the respect of the whole World.

在这个过程中，他们获得了不朽的荣耀，并获得了全世界的尊重。

Wayne King
Aug 4, 2017
I believe it was the bombing of the Finnish cities that turned the tide. The Soviets were outfought on the ground.
The Finns still lost a lot of territory though including the nickel mines and Arctic Ocean outlet of Petsamo.

我相信是对芬兰城市的轰炸扭转了局势。苏联人在地面上被击败了。
芬兰人仍然失去了很多领土，包括镍矿和北冰洋出口皮特萨莫。

Chanakya K
Jul 27, 2017
Finns are the best of the world!
Everything people can emulate.

芬兰人是世界上最优秀的！
它的一切事物都值得人们模仿。

Alfred Calambro
Sep 3, 2017
I think history categorizes this event as a “Phyrric” victory for the Russians.

我认为，历史将这一事件归为俄罗斯人的“皮洛士式”的胜利。

Tyler Higgins
Dec 19
The sequel to this would be the Battle of Tali-Ihantala. No doubt the Red Army sought to redeem themselves for the humiliation of the Winter War, they failed again.

这将是塔利亚-伊汉塔拉之战的续篇。毫无疑问，红军为了在冬季战争中蒙受耻辱寻求救赎，他们又失败了。

Jack Getty
Dec 1, 2017
If land was ceded to the, that is a victory in the end.

如果土地被割让给了，那将是最终的胜利。

Shubham Dhingra
Aug 6, 2017
To those pseudo nationalist Americans who are call this a defeat or costly victory, what was Vietnam? Nothing but a COSTLY DEFEAT.

对于那些称之为“失败”或“代价高昂的胜利”的伪民族主义的美国人来说，越南算什么？它只是代价高昂的失败罢了。

William Lawyer
Jul 27, 2017 · 1 upvote
Pyrrhic victory, not a defeat. Still very, very embarrassing.

代价惨重的胜利，而不是失败。仍然非常非常尴尬。

Dan Petre
Jul 27, 2017
Stalin did not see it that way, he still got new territory.

斯大林不这么看，他仍然获得了新的领土。

Herman Mikhailenko
Jul 27, 2017 · 1 upvote
That’s how badass Soviet Union was: it gains new territorty even when it loses a war! /s

这就是苏联的糟糕之处：即使它输掉了一场战争，它也获得了新的领土。

Colt Boulder
Jul 27, 2017
Technically a victory since they acquired more land than they demanded in peace time

从技术上讲，这是一场胜利，因为他们获得了比和平时期所要求的更多的土地

Andrew Ageyev
Jul 27, 2017
Numbers don’t matter if your army is a disorganized mess.

如果你的军队混乱不堪，数字并不重要。

Quang Nguyen
Jul 27, 2017 · 1 upvote
How could it be a defeat ? Their lost of death is even smaller than Battle of Kurks

怎么可能是失败呢？他们的死亡数字甚至比库尔克斯战役还要小

Sng Kok Joon Leonard
Aug 11, 2017
Yes, human lives mean nothing to them.

是的，人命对他们来说毫无意义。

Thileepan Thava
Jul 27, 2017
11% territory is something!

11%的领土很重要