遇见二战中的真正纳粹是什么感觉？ [美国媒体]

-------------译者：龙腾翻译总管-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

What is it like meeting a real Nazi from WWII?

遇见二战中的真正纳粹是什么感觉？




-------------译者：roroho-审核者：hht288------------

Nick Schön I'm old so I've seen quite a lot of history. upxed Nov 7 
In the 1970’s I went to the Oktoberfest in Munich with my brother Dave. I’m a Brit and I was living in Germany at the time. Anyway we were sitting at these long tables they have in the huge tents there and I started chatting to an old guy next to me. He was really friendly and told me he was on some church visit to Munich and just popped in for 95 litres of beer as you do at the Fest.

20世纪70年代，我和弟弟戴夫一起去了慕尼黑啤酒节。我是个英国人，当时我住在德国。总之，在那巨大的帐篷里，我们坐在这些长长的桌子旁，我就跟旁边的一个老人聊起来。他人还挺不错非常友好，告诉我说他参观过几次慕尼黑的教堂，在那喝了95升啤酒，就像你在啤酒节做的事一样，。

So we started talking about religion and I told him that my dad was born in Vienna but had to go to London sharpish in 1938 because he was Jewish.

于是我们开始聊起了宗教，我告诉他我父亲出生在维也纳，但1938年他不得不迅速逃亡去伦敦，因为他是犹太人。

He was amazed. “So why are you here?” he asked me amazement in his voice “How can you ever forgive us?” I told him what brought me to Germany and said that the past was the past that I really just want to get on with my life and that I’m atheist and pragmatic.

他很吃惊。“那你为什么来这里？”他问我，惊讶地说:“你怎么能原谅我们呢？”“我告诉他，是什么使我来到德国，并说已经过去的就让它过去，我只是想继续我的生活，而且我是无神论者，很务实。”

He told me with tears running down his cheeks (he had had a lot to drink admittedly) that he had been an enthusiastic Nazi that he had said and thought some terrible things but had since found Jesus.

他泪流满面地对我说（不得不承认，他喝了很多酒），他曾是一个狂热的纳粹分子，他曾说过也想过一些可怕的事情，但后来皈依了耶稣。

It was all getting a bit surreal and I didn’t want to get into a big God discussion especially with an ex-Nazi. I made our excuses but he asked for my address which for some reason I gave him. Dave said I was an idiot and that he was certain I’d get evangelists ringing my doorbell for the next year trying to convert me.

这一切开始变得有点超现实主义了，而我不想参与到关于上帝的大讨论中，尤其是与一位前纳粹分子。我们找了个借口，但他要了我的地址，出于某些原因，我给了他。戴夫说我是个白痴，他肯定明年我家的门铃会被传教劝我皈依的人按个不停。

That didn’t happen. Instead the man sent me a small package with a beautiful and large opal in it. He wrote a note telling me he dealt in gems and that this opal would be a tiny gift to my wife and was a way to say sorry to us from him.

但那并没有发生。相反，他给我寄了一个小包裹，里面装着一个漂亮的大猫眼石。他写了一张便条，告诉我说他做些宝石生意，这个猫眼石是送给我妻子的一份小礼物，也是他向我们道歉的一种方式。

I met a few other old people who must have been Nazis in the war. None ever brought the past up but the guy in the beer tent did and I’ll always remember his incredulity at me being there and his tears.

我遇过一些在战争时期曾是纳粹分子的老人们。没有人把过去的事提出来，但是在啤酒帐篷里的那个人却这样做了，而且我永远记得那时他对我目瞪口呆的样子，还有他忏悔的眼泪。

 -------------译者：roroho-审核者：hht288------------

Brian Mead upxed Nov 2
When I was in Germany I got to know an old man. One day he told me that he once upon time could have never imagined taking an American for a friend. I asked him why and he said that our countries had once upon a time being enemies. After a bit more talking and probing I learned that he had been a member of the Schutzstaffel.

我在德国的时候认识了一个老头。有一天，他告诉我说他以前从来没有想过会和一个美国人做朋友。我问他为什么，他说我们的国家曾经有段时间是敌人。经过一番探讨之后，我了解到他曾是（德）纳粹党卫军的成员。

I did my best to remain calm and talk to him as he seemed nice and reasonable. He told me that his childhood had been marked by national feelings of deep humiliation and despair. Hitler’s mesage had been like a narcotic. He said that he had believed in Hitler just as everyone else had. Democracy hadn’t worked; Democracy had instead pushed them into this mess — from their Kaiser to the British-French democracies forcing their ruin and their own democracy not helping anything at all. Hitler was seductive and easy to follow. He told people what they wanted to hear. He joined the SS when he was old enough in 1942. He missed the initial Blitzkrieg and spend much of the war in Norway as an occupier. He saw action for a few weeks in France late in 1944 until he was wounded fragments taking off two fingers from his right hand and that got him sent home.

我尽了自己最大的努力保持镇静，跟他聊天，因为他看起来人还不错很通情达理的样子。他跟我说，他的童年满是民族深深的屈辱和绝望的烙印。希特勒的话语就像是毒品一样让人上瘾。他说他当时很相信希特勒，跟其他人一样。民主没有发挥作用；民主反而把他们推向了混乱——不论是他们的皇帝，还是英法等民主国家，都迫使他们破产，他们自己的民主制度丝毫没有发挥作用。希特勒（的话语）很有诱惑力且容易效仿追随。他告诉人民的都是他们想听到的。等他到（兵役年龄后），于1942年加入了党卫军。他错过了德最初的闪电战，作为占领军他大部分时间是在挪威作战。后来在1944年，他到法国参与了几周的行动，直到他受伤，弹片夺走了他右手的两个手指，这使他被送回了家。

He said that after the war he still wanted Hitler. He still didn’t believe in Democracy. He still hated the Jews. It took until the 1960’s for the success of the Bundesrespublic Deutschland for him to come around and uate his life. The thing that changed it was a conversation with a British veteran who had told him that everyone had had a bad time of it and not just Germany had rationining instability poverty and so on. They swapped stories of being two people just on opposed sides of a bad part of history. The prosperity of the BRD also helped to sell him on democracy but it wasn’t until the reunification of Germany that he came to really believe that freedom and democracy would ultimately work; he thought the Deutsches Democratische Republic was going to win because it had a top-down system that enforced everyone to be in line. The Cold War ending with liberal democracies triumphing was the final nail in the coffin of his lingering sympathies for Fascism.

他说战争结束后，他仍然想着希特勒，仍然不相信民主，仍然仇恨犹太人。直到20世纪60年代，联邦德国的成功才使他的生活有所改变（变得更美好）。改变这一切的是他与一名英国老兵的谈话，那位英国老兵告诉他，每个人都经历过一段糟糕的时光，不是只有德国有食物配给困难、（社会）动荡、（人民）贫困等的问题。他们彼此互换了各自的故事，他们只不过是在一段糟糕错误的历史时期里被迫成为敌对关系的两个（普通人）而已。德意志联邦共和国的繁荣也使他得以相信民主，但直到德国重新统一后，他才真正相信自由和民主最终将发挥作用；他认为德意志民主共和国将会赢得胜利，因为它有一个自上而下的体制，强制每个人都整齐划一。冷战是随着自由民主国家的胜利而结束了，这是他对法西斯主义挥之不去的同情的最后一颗钉子。

The diversity of modern Germany taught him that different peoples can live together and be richer for it. I asked him if he would be willing to give it up for a world where Hitler had won. He laughed and said only if he got to keep the kebabs. It was frankly horrifying meeting someone who was a genuine Nazi but I’m glad I did. He also didn’t understand Holocaust denial given that the Nazis who were tried never denied what they did.

现代德国的多样性使他认识到不同的民族可以生活在一起，并因此而更加富有。我问他是否愿意为一个希特勒获胜的世界而失去这一切。他笑着说，除非他天天有烤肉串可以吃。坦率地说，遇见一个真正的纳粹分子还是挺可怕的，但我很高兴我做到了。他也不理解为什么要否认对犹太人的大屠杀，因为纳粹从未否认他们所做的事情。

All in all he regrets having been a Nazi but the situation he lived in and the propaganda of the time made it very hard to not be one and he views his time as a genuine Nazi as a painful chapter in his life he is glad is behind him.

总之他后悔曾成为一名纳粹分子，但是那时所处的环境和当时的宣传力度使得人们很难不盲从，他认为他成为一个真正的纳粹的经历是其人生痛苦的一章，他很高兴那一切都成往事。

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Eric Crutchlow former Principal Security Engineer at Anomali (2016-2017) Answered Nov 1
My father was in the US Army during WWII and served in the European theater of war. After the war he was stationed for a time in Heidelberg where he had a German civilian secretary. They fell in love got married and years later two sons with me the youngest. So WWII history has been a big interest of mine.

二战期间，我爸在美军中服役，在欧洲战场作战。战争结束后，他在海德堡驻扎了一段时间，在那里他有一名德国文职秘书。他们相爱了，结婚多年后，有了两个儿子，我是其中最小的那个。所以二战历史是我的一大兴趣。

I’ve met several former Nazi’s including Ferry Porsche (my mother worked at Porsche HQ in NJ for awhile). They all were people and having not known their past it would be hard for me to know they had been Nazi’s. They were not the ‘super humans’ as Hitler and the party propaganda claimed. But the truth (as I see it) is worse.

我遇到过几个前纳粹分子，包括费利·保时捷（我母亲曾在新泽西州的保时捷总部工作过一段时间）。他们都是普通人，对我来说，不了解他们的过去就很难知道他们曾是纳粹分子。他们并不是希特勒和纳粹党所宣称的“超级人类”。但事实（正如我所见）更糟。

During the Holocaust the man behind the organization of the logistics was Aldof Eichmann. He initially escaped justice but was later captured by the Israeli Mossad and brought to Jerusalem for trial. Witnesses were brought in including Yehiel De-Nur a survivor and author. You can see the recording of the event on Youtube:

在大屠杀期间，组织后勤的人是阿尔德夫·艾希曼。最初他逃脱了审判，但后来被以色列情报机构摩萨德抓获，并被带到耶路撒冷受审。目击者被带进来，包括一名幸存者和作家耶希尔·德努尔。你可以在Youtube上看到这一事件的记录：

Mr. De-Nur’s testimony starts at about the 2:00 minute mark but what is key is what happens at the 8:55 mark. Mr. De-Nur faints. Everyone felt this was due to facing the monster Eichmann. And that belief stood for years.

德努尔的证词大约从两分（视频时间进度）开始，但关键是在8分55秒发生的事情。德努尔先生晕倒了。每个人都觉得这是因为要面对艾希曼这个怪物。而人们对这种信念数年来深信不疑。

In 1983 I watched the 60 Minutes segment on Mr. De-Nur and he explained what really happened. From Mr. De-Nur’s Wikipedia page:

1983年，我观看了《60分钟》关于德努尔的报道，他解释了当时到底发生了什么。摘自德努尔先生的维基百科页面：

‘[Mr. De-Nur] explained to Wallace all at once he realized Eichmann was not the god-like army officer who had sent so many to their deaths. This Eichmann was an ordinary man. "I was afraid about myself" said Dinur. "... I saw that I am capable to do this. I am ... exactly like he." ‘

“德努尔先生向华莱士解释道，他突然意识到艾希曼并不是像上帝一样的军官，他使这么多人断送了生命。这个艾希曼只是个普通人。“我畏惧自己，”德努尔说：“…我（从他身上看到）自己也有做这种坏事的能力。我……跟他是完全一样的。“

Yehiel De-Nur - Wikipedia

耶希尔·德努尔——维基百科

This really hit me like a bolt of lightning.

这真的是像闪电一样刺激了我。

So what is it like to meet a former Nazi? It’s like meeting anyone we know. We are all capable of evil but let’s work for the good.

那么，遇见一名前纳粹分子是什么感觉呢？就像遇见一个我们认识的人。我们都有作恶的能力，但请让我们为行善而努力。

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Martin Mcclure FFL 01 Small Gun Store Owner (2011-present) Answered Oct 30
Back in the early 80’s I was an US Army armor crewman stationed in Augsburg Germany. I liked to wander around the town and see parts that didn't include the regular GI watering holes.

早在80年代初，我是驻扎在德国奥格斯堡的美国装甲兵船员。我喜欢在城里转悠看看，不包括那些普通的只允许美国军人进出酒吧。

One night I was walking around and heard a lot of laughter coming from a small guesthaus (bar) Upon entering I saw a good sized group of older men drinking and singing and having a good time.

有天晚上我正在散步，从一间小客房（酒吧）里传出了阵阵笑声。走进去，我看到一群人数不少的老头们在喝酒、唱歌，玩得很开心。
They all stopped and looked at me when I walked in it was of course obvious that I was an American soldier.


当我走进来的时候，他们都停下来看着我，当然这很明显是因为我是一个美国士兵。

Turns out it was a German WW2 armor reunion and once they found out I too was an armor crewman we all decided to put the past behind us and enjoy the fellowship that being in that line of work brings no matter the country.

原来这是德国二战装甲兵的重聚，当他们了解到我也是一名装甲船员时，我们都捐弃前嫌，享受身处同一行所带来的友谊，不管你来自哪个国家。

Several had missing arms and legs one had part of his face missing and wore a white mask. We drank they sang old war songs…. They told me war stories a couple were in armor in SS units many had old black and white pictures of themselves back during the war in their uniforms. I met one that had been at Stalingrad and survived to make it back to Germany.. about 5000 made it back out of 90000 that surrendered… Quite an accomplishment.

有几个人失去了他们的胳膊和腿，有一个半边脸不见了因此戴了一个白色的面具。我们畅饮，他们唱着战争老歌……他们给我讲战争故事，一对夫妇是党卫军的装甲兵，有许多他们在战争期间穿着军装的黑白老照片。我还遇到一位在斯大林格勒战役中存活下来的人，他千辛万苦回到了德国.......大约9万人中有5千人投降后回到了（德国）…一个相当大的成就。

They were very factual about their beliefs none felt they owed an apology for their actions they fought bled and died for their country just like any other soldier would do.

他们对自己的信仰非常真切，没有人觉得他们应该为自己的行为道歉，他们为国家而战、流血、牺牲，跟其他任何士兵做的一样。

I tend not to judge people by their beliefs because they are usually brought on by the environment that they were raised in. All I know is they treated me well that night I didn't have to buy a drink and I was a honorary kamerad of theirs for a few short hours.

我不会以信仰来评判人们，因为它们通常是由他们的成长环境所造就。我所知道的是，那天晚上他们对我都很好，我都不需要付酒钱，在那短短的几个小时里，我是他们的荣誉伙伴。

Interesting note none of them seemed to have too high a regard for A. Hitler. Probably because he caused the loss of the war and nobody likes a loser.

有趣的是，他们中没有一个人对希特勒有过高评价。可能是因为他造成了战争的失败，且没有人喜欢失败者。

Not an evening I will forget any time soon.

这是一个永远难以忘怀的夜晚。

 -------------译者：roroho-审核者：hht288------------

Tina Owens lived in Been in Hawaii Since 1985 Big Island Since 1993 Answered Oct 31
When I was a child and after my father died my mother moved us to Florida where her parents lived. She didn’t have any friends to speak of. This was in the mid-sixties.

我还年幼的时候，父亲去世了，母亲带着我们搬到了外公外婆居住的佛罗里达。她在那没有任何朋友可以交谈。那是在六十年代中期。

On the same street about two blocks away lived a girl my age. We became friends but she always had something of an attitude I didn’t really like. However my mom became really good friends with the girl’s mother so we were together a lot. She was a lovely woman from Ecuador and didn’t speak much English. Her name was Yolanda and she and my mom became really tight.

在大约两个街区之外的同一条街上，住着一个与我同龄的女孩。我们成了朋友，但她总是怀着一种我不太喜欢的态度。然而，我妈妈和这个女孩的母亲却成了很好的朋友，所以我们经常在一起玩。女孩的妈妈是个可爱的女人，来自厄瓜多尔，不太会说英语。她的名字叫尤兰达，她和我妈妈的关系变得非常亲密。

My friend didn’t like her new Ecuadorian mom. Apparently there had been a number of moms. I think there were eight or ten kids all together and they all hated their father who was German.

我朋友不喜欢她的新厄瓜多尔妈妈。显然她有很多妈妈。我想总共有8到10个孩子，他们都憎恨他们的父亲 —— 一个德国人。

Eventually all the kids took off; some were old enough to get jobs and the others went with them. Or went somewhere. They couldn’t wait to get out of that house.

最终所有的孩子都离开了；有些人年龄够大了就去找工作，而其他人也跟着去。或者去了某个地方。他们都迫不及待地想离开那所房子。

A year or so later Yolanda had a little boy. One day she asked if I could babysit for the boy because some friends of theirs from Ecuador were visiting and they wanted to go out to dinner. I was pretty young (I think I was fourteen at that time) but since my mom was just down the street she thought it would be okay.

差不多一年后，尤兰达生了一个小男孩。有一天，她问我是否可以帮忙照看她的孩子，因为她家里来了几位来自厄瓜多尔的朋友，他们要出去吃饭。我当时还很年轻（我想当时我才14岁)，但既然我妈妈就在这条街街头附近，所以她觉得没什么问题。

I met the visiting couple he a German with something very creepy about him and she naturally was South American.

我还碰见了这对来访的夫妇，男方是一个德国人，给人一种很恐怖的感觉，而女方自然是南美人。

They came home considerably later than they had told me and my mom was worried and phoned every hour. When they did come home the two men were very very drunk. They were arguing about something in German while their wives tried to shut them up. Suddenly the visitor started stamping around the house and giving the Nazi salute and screaming “Heil Hitler!!”

他们回家的时间非常晚，比他们告诉我的要晚得多，而且我妈妈很是担心，每小时就来电一次。当他们回到家的时候，两个男士已经喝得酩酊大醉了。他们在争论着关于德国的一些事情，而他们的老婆却试图让他们闭嘴。突然，来访者开始在房子里来回跺脚，行纳粹礼，并大声呐喊“希特勒万岁!”

I was young but I knew what that meant. I had met not one Nazi but two and still very much believers. Later on I learned about the high-ranking Nazis escaping to South America.

我当时很年轻，但我知道那意味着什么。我遇到过的不是一个纳粹分子，而是两个，而且还是死忠粉。后来我听说了有高层纳粹分子逃到了南美。

They offered to drive me home but I called my mom and she came to get me. It was the last time we had anything to do with them. Although I was sorry for Yolanda.

他们提出要开车送我回家，但我打电话给我妈妈，让她过来接我。这也是我们最后一次与他们发生联系。尽管我有点对不住尤兰达。