reddit长篇评论：多米尼加共和国与台湾决裂，与中国大陆建立外交关系 [美国媒体]

Dominican Republic breaks with Taiwan to form diplomatic ties with China

多米尼加共和国与台湾决裂，与中国大陆建立外交关系



[–]JillyPollaTaiwan 
Looks like Ma's diplomatic truce was the correct policy. Sure makes Tsai's criticism of 外交休克 age badly.

看起来马英九的外交休兵政策才是正确的。（相较而言）显然让蔡英文的“外交休克”招致了严重批评。

[–]kevincrazykid  
right, cause dominican republic is so important in the grand scheme of things. it's a shitty 3rd world country, selling your sovereignty just to hold on to some third world country with money doesn't benefit Taiwan.

对，因为多米尼加共和国从宏观战略角度来看是如此重要。它是一个垃圾的第三世界国家，出卖你的主权而，只是为了用金钱保住第三世界国家（的邦交关系），这对台湾没有好处。

[–]JillyPollaTaiwan  
Not sure if you know what diplomatic truce was, but the whole point behind that was so that the two sides don't spend money to compete for diplomatic recognition from "shitty 3rd world country".
Ma was smart enough to get a truce in place so that Taiwanese don't need to waste their money buying love from these small nations.

不确定你是否知道外交休兵的含义，但这背后的全部原因是为了让双方不要撒钱去争取来自“第三世界国家”的外交承认。
马英九很聪明，能够达成休兵协议，这样台湾人就不用浪费钱来购买这些小国家的爱了。

[–]kevincrazykid 
Ma sold out taiwan. He kowtow to Xi da da. That was the precondition for diplomatic truce. Fuck that shit. And in the event of Chinese aggression, what the fuck is the Dominican republic gonna do to China? Condemn loudly? Friends like those are worthless. Ma is a piece of shit wannabe chinese premier, everyone in taiwan thinks he's a joke.

马英九把台湾卖完了。他向中国（大陆）叩头——这是外交休兵的先决条件。qtmb。而且在中国武统的情况下，多米尼加共和国将会对中国做些什么呢？大声谴责吗？像这样的友邦是没有价值的。马是一个想要成为华人总理的lese，所有台湾人都认为他是个笑话。

[–]chinaxiha 
Ma sold out taiwan. He kowtow to Xi da da.
what did Ma gave? seems like taiwan gave 0 shit and got everything?

“马英九把台湾卖完了。他向中国（大陆）叩头”
马给大陆什么了？好像台湾光吃不吐吧？

[–]kevincrazykid   
He opened Taiwan to China, without caring about Chinese government being a hostile regime and the ramification this entail. He did this even though the vast majority of taiwanese oppose closer economic integration with china. This was so concerning that it touched off political activism in the students, who demand a change and made him back down. He also met with the Chinese leader Xi unilaterally; ordinarily it's not a big deal if a head of state meet with another head of state, except china is still technically at war with taiwan and have never renounced the use of force for a cross strait invasion, so this is very, very troubling. The vast majority of taiwanese oppose unification, and yet he came out and said there is only one china, and taiwan is a part of china. Add to that an incredibly inept governance over 8 years that point out problems but didn't do anything to address them (an example, the pension system was broken, he came out and said as much, then his government sit on their asses and do nothing, and once it became clear his party is gonna get shit on in the elections they did even less cause their attitude is literally why the fuck bother, we're not gonna be in power). An incompetent traitor, and so much for his pretty talk about how going to china will solve the economic problem; wages stagnate and the economy got worse under him, cause he remove all systemic and institutional safeguard that protect taiwanese industries and prevent capital outflow. Fuck him.

他向中国（大陆）开放台湾，不在乎中国政府是一个充满敌意的政权，也不关心这其中的分歧。尽管绝大多数台湾人反对加深与中国（大陆）的经济融合，但他还是这么做了。这是非常令人担忧的，这引发了学生们的政治活动，他们要求改变，并让马让步。他还单方面会见了中国领导人；通常情况下，如果一个国家元首与另一个国家元首会面，这并不是什么大不了的事，但中国（大陆）从严格意义上来讲仍与台湾处于战争状态，而且从未放弃使用武力进行跨海峡武统，所以这是非常非常令人不安的。绝大多数台湾人反对统一，但马站出来说，只有一个中国，台湾是中国的一部分。此外，他超过8年的无能治理指出了问题，但没有采取任何措施来解决这些问题（例如，养老体系漏洞，他站出来强调了很多，然后他的执政团队稳坐钓鱼台，啥都不做，而一旦形势明朗化，他的果党在大选中hold不住了，他们甚至更加无所作为，因为他们的态度完全就是：反正我们要不掌权了，我们tmd还烦这些鸟事干吗？）。他是一个无能的叛徒，尤其因为他关于转向中国（大陆）将解决经济问题的漂亮演讲；工资不涨，经济在他的领导下变得更糟，因为他取消了所有保护台湾产业和防止资本外流的体系和制度保障。ctmd。

[–]chinaxiha 
He opened Taiwan to China, without caring about Chinese government being a hostile regime and the ramification this entail.
what did he open to? China cannot make investments or buy taiwanese companies. Give me specific points on what Ma sold out Taiwan on? I'm genuinely curious.

“他向中国（大陆）开放台湾，不在乎中国政府是一个充满敌意的政权，也不关心这其中的分歧”
他开放了什么？中国（大陆）不能投资或购买台湾企业。能否给我讲具体一点，马英九卖了台湾什么？我真的很好奇。

[–]kevincrazykid 
In a nutshell, he opened up laws that regulate taiwanese investment in china, and did nothing when the taiwanese companies, now without much regulatory oversight, outsource the majority of local manufacturing to China. Thus, on paper it looks like Taiwanese economy is growing, but in reality, inequality got worse under him, rich taiwanese and chinese businessmen made money hand over fist on the back of cheap Chinese labour, while the poor chinese suffered and the middle class in taiwan got poorer. This economic thing can be forgiven, if taiwan and china were regular countries, then you'd just call him stupid, but China threaten armed invasion of Taiwan, and they don't have a normal state-to-state relationship, so he just made taiwan more vulnerable and sold out taiwanese economy, all because his businessmen cronies want to get richer and make chinese money. And all those taiwanese businessmen already have their families in other countries like US and Canada, why do they care if Taiwan went to shit? oh, and did i mention he said Taiwan is a part of China?

简单地说，他放开了监管台湾在陆投资的法律，而且当台湾企业在没有太多监管的情况下，将大部分本地制造业外包给大陆时，却没有采取任何措施。因此，从表面上看，台湾经济似乎在增长，但实际上，在他的领导下，不平等状况变得更糟，富有的台湾和中国（大陆）商人在廉价的中国劳动力的支持下，赚了大钱，而中国（大陆）的穷人却遭受了损失，并且台湾的中产阶级也变得更穷了。如果台湾和中国大陆都是普通国家，那么这种经济层面的情况也情有可原，人们也不会说他蠢，但中国威胁武统台湾，而且两岸不是正常的国与国关系，所以他只是让台湾更脆弱了，还出卖了台湾经济，因为他的裙带商人想要发财，赚中国（大陆）的钱。所有这些台湾商人都已经在美国和加拿大等其他国家有了自己的家庭，他们为什么还要关心台湾是否会陷入困境？哦，还有，我有没有提到他说台湾是中国的一部分？

[–]JillyPollaTaiwan 
Income inequality got worse pretty much in all the major countries in the world during that time, but yeah, let's blame income inequality in China and Taiwan on Ma. Maybe you could blame income inequality in the US on Ma as well by some roundabout mental gymnastic too.
The 8 years under Chen the government discouraged investment in Mainland China by policy. Taiwanese investment in Mainland China grew precipitously regardless. Instead of seeing it as a sign of the times you want to stop the trend and lock Taiwan down? How would that help the Taiwanese economy?

在马执政的那段时间里，世界上所有主要国家的收入不平等状况都在恶化，但是，是的，让我们把中国（大陆）和台湾的收入不平等归咎于马英九。也许你可以把美国的收入不平等归咎于一些曲线精神体操。
在陈水扁执政的8年里，当局通过有关政策抑制了对中国大陆的投资。尽管如此，台湾在中国大陆的投资急剧增长。不要把它看作是时代的标志，你想要阻止这一趋势，把台湾关起来？这对台湾经济有何帮助？

[–]kevincrazykid 
"Maybe you could blame income inequality in the US on Ma as well by some roundabout mental gymnastic too."
Lol, is Ma the president of US, or is he the president of Taiwan? Are you fucking retarded? And his policy certainly made it way, way worse. Taiwanese hate Ma for good reasons, his approval rating was unbelievably shit. And yea, good comeback, inequalities is getting worse everywhere, therefore it's not his fault? No. If inequality gets worse elsewhere, of course you blame the government that's in power elsewhere for regulatory failure as well, like people are starting to do in the major countries. And I only blame Ma for what he did in taiwan, I didn't blame him for the inequality in china, thats on the CCP. You don't just throw up your hand and say, oh well, it's bad everywhere, that means nobody is at fault.
No one is saying lock taiwan down. Instead, do what the current regime is doing. Diversify the economy. Go southbound. Go Philippine, thailand, vietnam. Those countries are not hostile to Taiwan. Don't put all your eggs in one basket and rely on a shitty regime with no IP protection and no human rights or rule by law for your economy. Taiwanese investment is always gonna go where they can make the most short term profit, it is the government's responsibility via regulatory oversight and policies to guide the business community and safeguard taiwan's future. Both Ma and Chen failed to do so, but it is more excusable for Chen cause he has no control over parliament, so a lot of policies were deadlocked. Take it from me, Ma is a shit president, and that's a wide consensus in taiwan, the ccp likes how pro-china and easy he is but even they acknowledge he is a joke and largely ineffectual.

“也许你可以把美国的收入不平等归咎于一些曲线精神体操”
呵呵，马英九是美国的“总统”，还是台湾的“总统”？你是白痴吗？他的政策肯定会让事情变得更糟。台湾人恨马的理由很充分，他的支持率低得令人难以置信。好了，言归正传，不平等现象在各地都变得越来越糟，所有这就不是他的错了？不。如果其他地方的不平等现象加剧，你当然也会指责当地政府的监管失败——就像人们开始在主要国家所做的那样。我只怪马英九在台湾的所作所为，我没有因为中国（大陆）的不平等现象而责怪他，那是TG的责任。你不会只是两手一摊，哦，好吧，到处都是糟糕的（不平等）情况，这意味着没有人是错的。
没有人说要把台湾关起来。相反，要推动当前政权正在做的事情。实现经济多元化。南向发展。转向菲律宾、泰国、越南。这些国家对台湾没有敌意。不要把所有的鸡蛋放在一个篮子里，去依靠一个没有知识产权保护、没有人权、不依法保护你的经济的糟糕政权。台湾的投资总是会流向他们能够获得最短期利润的地方，而通过监管和政策来引导商业团体和维护台湾的未来，这是“政府”的责任。马英九和陈水扁都没能做到这一点，但对陈水扁来说，这更情有可原，因为他无法控制议会（译注：扁执政时期，台“立法会”多数议席为果党占据），因此许多政策陷入了僵局。在我看来，马英九是一个垃圾的“总统”，这在台湾是一个广泛的共识，TG喜欢他的亲大陆立场和简单，但即便如此，就连他们也承认马是一个笑话，而且在很大程度上是无能的。

[–]JillyPollaTaiwan
So you think trading with China is bad because they don't have IP nor human right protection, yet your alternatives are Philippine, Thailand, or Vietnam? Have you been to those places? Those places have even less IP protection and their human rights aren't exactly stellar either.
It's weird that you bought the southbound campaign rhetoric, when it's basically has shown to have done nothing substantial. Taiwanese people are leaving for jobs on the mainland in record numbers, trade with Mainland China have not slowed, and the economy.
You think that not trading with Mainland China is going to decrease inequality, but you haven't explained the mechanism. How would stopping trade with China, which cannot be replaced by "going south", lead to better inequality? The economy will shrink by a large amount, many Taiwanese will exit Taiwan. How is that exactly going to address inequality?

所以你认为与中国（大陆）开展贸易是糟糕的，因为他们没有知识产权和人权保护，但你的选择是菲律宾、泰国和越南？你去过那些地方吗？那些地方的知识产权保护更少，而且它们的人权状况也不是很好。
奇怪的是，你推崇南向的竞选口号，而它基本上没有发挥任何实质性的作用。台湾民众正以创纪录的数量离开台湾去大陆谋生，台湾与中国大陆的贸易没有放缓，经济也没有放缓。
你认为不与中国大陆进行贸易将会减少不平等，但你却没有解释这种机制。如何在停止与中国（大陆）贸易，而中国又不能被“南向”政策所取代的情况下，改善不平等现象？（这么做）经济将大幅萎缩，许多台湾人将离开台湾。这到底是如何解决不平等问题的？

[–]kevincrazykid 
Those countries don't threaten taiwanese sovereignty, and their governments are certainly less oppressive, especially to taiwanese. less ip protection than china? lol, you must be smoking something. China is the world leader in violating copyright, theres an annual award in germany honouring the most blatant copy pf designs that companies put out, and chinese companies took the vast majority of the prizes.
And I can assure you, the taiwanese economic campaigns are yielding fruit. A portion of younger generation of Taiwanese people are still leaving for jobs on the mainland, that's true, it takes time for difficult reforms to go through, but the situation is steadily improving, and the vast majority of those people surveyed indicate they plan to come back to taiwan and not stay in china; they will come back when the economy gets better, which it will. And it's only the young people graduating that plan to work abroad for brief stints; the rank and file in taiwan are not going or thinking about going to china to work. Policy takes time, the Tsai government have been in power only 2 years, and although they falter a bit at the beginning, after premier lai everything is starting to fall into place. You cant expect a policy like these to show results right away, people have to meet and ink out commercial deals, etc.
I did not say stop trading with china, i said reduce dependency and diversify, stop putting words in my mouth. And a huge part of the current government's plan has always been reinvesting in the taiwanese local industries and starting new industries, such as the 5+3, as well as attracting foreign investments from europe america and japan for example, that's the other part of their economic effort; it's not just the southbound policy. Essentially, the southbound effort is intended to divert the part of taiwanese business that traditionally invest in china and instead turn them to the southern countries, and also attract people from those regions to work and invest in taiwan; this has the added benefit of making those countries more invested in taiwan's security, and they are also feeling the pressure of china in the southern china sea. The government will alongside also invest money in local industries independent of the southbound policy in the 5+3 industries, as well as attracting US, european and Japanese investment in the tech industries; Hitachi japan just won a tender to construct a wind power farm for example, while google plan to open an ai headquarter in taiwan. The combinations of all these policies will vastly reduce taiwanese dependency on china, giving them much less ammunition in economic warfare, and will also make the rest of the world more invested in the security of taiwan. Inequality takes time to solve, but president tsai is planning to overhaul the labour laws to give labours more power, which is a good way to lower inequality; along with national projects to stimulate the economy and creating a higher demand for taiwanese labour again. That is the difference between her administration and Ma's; she's pushing through policies that overall increase the demand for taiwanese labour, not decrease, and that is the correct way to generate wealth and fix the economy.
And china isn't as special as you think, the rest of the world ooh and aah at china's achievement, i admit that what they've done is impressive, but not nearly as impressive as they claimed; for example, the chinese economy according to their official record grow at EXACTLY 6.8 % every quarter for the last year. The national economy grows consistently at 6.8 % EXACTLY every quarter? the numbers are cooked. Only a retard believes the official figure. Growth in china is slowing, and there are growing structural problems that china need to solve with its finance, banking and real estate sectors.
no offence, but you sound really fucking ignorant about taiwan and china. maybe don't talk shit about things you dont have any understanding of.

这些国家不会威胁台湾的“主权”，他们的政府显然也没那么具有压迫性，尤其是对台湾人。比中国更少的知识产权保护？哈哈，你一定是在幻想。中国是版权侵犯的世界领袖，德国每年都会颁发一个奖项，表彰企业推出的最明目张胆的山寨设计，而中国企业则获得了绝大多数的奖项。
而且我可以向你保证，台湾的经济活动正在结出果实。部分年轻一代的台湾人还在前往大陆求职，不错，想要完成艰难的转变需要花费时间，但情况在稳步改善，并且绝大多数接受调查的那些人表示，他们计划回到台湾，而不是留在中国（大陆）；当台湾经济好转时（肯定会好转的），他们就会回来。而且（去大陆的人）只是那些刚毕业的，打算在国外短期工作一段时间的年轻人；而台湾普通民众都不打算去中国工作。政策（起效）需要时间，蔡英文执政才两年，尽管在一开始的时候，他们有些动摇，但蔡执政之后，一切都开始得以落实推进了。你不能指望像这样的政策能立竿见影，人们还必须要见面并签订商业协议，等等。
我没有说要停止与中国（大陆）的贸易，我是说减少依赖和多样化，不要编排我的话。当局计划的很大一部分一直是对台湾地方产业进行再投资，并启动新的产业，如5+3，以及吸引来自欧洲和日本的外国投资，这是他们经济努力的另一部分；而不仅仅只有南向的政策。从本质上讲，南向的努力旨在转移一部分传统上在中国（大陆）投资的台湾企业，转而将它们转向南方国家，并吸引这些地区的人们到台湾工作和投资；这还有一个好处，那就是让这些国家更多地投资于台湾的安全，他们也感受到了中国施加在南中国海的压力。此外，政府还将在5+3产业中投资于本地产业，并吸引美国、欧洲和日本在科技行业的投资；例如，日立日本刚刚赢得了建造风力发电厂的投标，而谷歌计划在台湾开设一家人工智能总部。所有这些政策的组合将大大减少台湾对中国（大陆）的依赖，减少他们在经济战中的弹药，也将使世界其他国家对台湾的安全投入更多。不平等问题需要时间来解决，但蔡英文正计划修订劳工法，赋予劳工更多权力，这是一个减少不平等的好办法；与“国家”项目双管齐下刺激经济，以期再次对台湾劳动力产生更高的需求。这就是她的执政团队和马英九的区别；她推行的政策总体上增加了对台湾劳动力的需求，而不是减少，这是创造财富和修复经济的正确途径。
同时，中国并不像你想象的那么特别，世界其他国家对中国的成就抱以“哇塞”和“好NB”，我承认他们的成就令人震撼，但并不像他们宣称的那样令人震撼；例如，根据官方记录，中国经济在过去一年中每季度的增长速度都是6.8%。国民经济每季度的增长速度真地都是6.8%吗？这些数据都是包装过的。只有脑子不好使的人才相信官方的数字。中国经济增长正在放缓，而需要通过金融、银行和房地产行业解决的结构性问题却正在加剧。
无意冒犯，但你的话听起来真地tmd对台湾和中国（大陆）一无所知。也许你最好不要谈论那些你一无所知的事情。

[–]JillyPollaTaiwan
Despite a full year of this southbound campaign, trade with Mainland China has increased, not decreased. There's no sign showing that trade with SEA countries could replace even a small fraction of the trade with Mainland China. Those countries are busy trading with Mainland China. They care little about Taiwan.
President Tsai wanting to make labor powerful? Is that why her government is doing the hardest to cut public sector pensions retroactively? Or how they're screwing over workers regarding holidays? And I still don't know how trading with say Vietnam would lead to less inequality than trading with Mainland China.

尽管这种南向运动已经开展整整一年了，但台湾与中国大陆的贸易却在增加，而不是减少。没有迹象表明，与东盟国家的贸易甚至可以取代与中国大陆的哪怕一小部分贸易。这些国家正忙于与中国大陆进行贸易往来。他们很少关心台湾。
蔡英文想要让劳工变得更有权利？这就是为什么她的执政团队在全力反动地削减公共部门养老金的原因吗？还有他们是如何砍掉假期的方式压榨工人的？并且（从你的话中）我还是不知道，与像越南之类的国家贸易，怎么就能导致比与中国大陆贸易更少的不平等现象了。

[–]chinaxiha 
In a nutshell, he opened up laws that regulate taiwanese investment in china and did nothing when the taiwanese companies, now without much regulatory oversight, outsource the majority of local manufacturing to China.
So you are proposing that Taiwan BAN taiwanese from making investments in China? Isn't that what PRC tried to do with ROK or prevent Chinese tour groups from going to Taiwan???

“简单地说，他放开了监管台湾在陆投资的法律，而且当台湾企业在没有太多监管的情况下，将大部分本地制造业外包给大陆时，却没有采取任何措施”
所以你提议台湾禁止台湾人在大陆投资？这不就是中华人民共和国想要对韩国采取的做法吗？或者阻止中国旅游团去台湾的做法？？？

[–]kevincrazykid  
No, I'm proposing regulating and restricting Taiwanese investments, especially in certain sectors that's critical to the national future such as semiconductor industries. It's not an all or nothing process, there can be a happy middle where controlled investment doesn't result in all the industries going to the place of cheapest labour and least restrictive labour laws. The difference is this is done to protect local industries and taiwanese middle class, not for purely political reasons. China got shit because they did that purely for political reasons (in the South Korean case for example it was due to the deployment of THADD, not because China wanted to protect its people or industry).

不，我提议调整和限制台湾的投资，特别是在某些对“国家”未来至关重要的行业，比如半导体行业。这不是一个全得或全失的过程，可以有一个快乐的中间地带，控制投资不会导致所有行业倒退到最廉价的劳动力和最宽松的劳动法的悲惨地步。（和你提出的中国大陆的做法的）不同之处在于，这是为了保护地方产业和台湾的中产阶级，而不是纯粹出于政治原因。中国（大陆）搞砸了，因为他们这样做纯粹是出于政治原因（在韩国的案例中，这是由于部署萨德，而不是因为中国想要保护本国公民或产业）。

[–]chinaxiha 
No, I'm proposing regulating and restricting Taiwanese investments, especially in certain sectors that's critical to the national future such as semiconductor industries.
honestly tho, do you see taiwan able to compete economically with china? i see the PRC eradicating any economic advantages taiwan currently has (ie semiconducters) in 20 years.

“不，我提议调整和限制台湾的投资，特别是在某些对“国家”未来至关重要的行业，比如半导体行业”
我也老实说，你认为台湾能够和中国（大陆）在经济上竞争吗？我认为中国大陆会在20年里彻底消灭台湾目前拥有的一切经济优势。

[–]kevincrazykid
Yes, in a nutshell. There are things Taiwan does very well that China simply can't do. Innovation for example, Taiwan is consistently rated as one of the most innovative state in the world, while China has always struggled immensely in this area; this is partially due to culture, but a bigger reason is the stifling impact communism and thought control have on innovative thoughts; it's got to the point where the Chinese self-censored any dissident thoughts, that is hardly conductive to innovation. And there are so many countries in that region, and China have pissed off so many of them; Taiwan have cordial relations with most of them. Taiwan doesn't have to do this alone.
However, that is not to say, things are all rosy for taiwan; considerable structural reforms is still ahead, and Taiwan has to walk a fine-line between China and US, as well as carefully balance defence and economy. Overall though, competition between Taiwan and China is healthy for both side, and really good for the regular joes on both side of the strait that just want to make a comfortable living as businesses compete for their labour and their money.

是的，简而言之。有些事情台湾做得很好，中国就是做不到。以创新为例，台湾一直被认为是世界上最具创新精神的国家（地区）之一，而中国（大陆）一直都在此领域苦苦挣扎；这一部分是由于文化的原因，但更大的原因是TG主义和思想控制对创新思想的抑制作用；它已经达到了中国（大陆）自我审查任何异议思想的地步，这很难促进创新。并且在这个地区有很多国家，中国（大陆）已经惹怒了它们中地许多；而台湾与它们中的大多数都关系很好。台湾无需孤军奋战。
然而，这并不是说，台湾的一切都是美好的；相当大的结构性改革仍在进行中，台湾必须在中国（大陆）和美国之间进行微调，并谨慎地平衡国防和经济。总的来说，台湾和中国大陆的竞争对双方都是有利的，对海峡两岸想要过上舒适生活的普通民众来说都是好事，因为企业为了他们的劳动和金钱而竞争。

[–]chinaxiha 
Yes, in a nutshell. There are things Taiwan does very well that China simply can't do. Innovation for example, Taiwan is consistently rated as one of the most innovative state in the world, while China has always struggled immensely in this area; this is partially due to culture, but a bigger reason is the stifling impact communism and thought control have on innovative thoughts;
do you think this is still going to be true 20 years out? some Chinese companies are already incredibly innovative. DJI is the undisputed leader in its market, beating french and US companies like gopro. Huawei is one of the most innovative companies on the planet with more international patent filings than Samsung. This is in spite of what you are mentioning about thought control or censorship.
China has literally an unlimited pocket to dump money into high end investments. I think everyone in the field recognizes China and US as the only players in the AI game, no other country even comes close, and that includes Taiwan. Sure taiwan is great at the semiconductor game now (what else is taiwan good at now?), but in 20 years time it will be swept away.

“是的，简而言之。有些事情台湾做得很好，中国就是做不到。以创新为例，台湾一直被认为是世界上最具创新精神的国家（地区）之一，而中国（大陆）一直都在此领域苦苦挣扎；这一部分是由于文化的原因，但更大的原因是TG主义和思想控制对创新思想的抑制作用”
你认为20年后这还会是这样吗？一些中国企业已经非常具有创新性。大疆是（无人机）市场上无可争议的领导者，击败了法国和美国公司，比如GoPro。华为是全球最具创新力的公司之一，其专利申请量超过三星。尽管这就是你所提到的思想控制或审查。
中国实际上有一个无底口袋，能以海量资金注入到高端投资中。我认为在高端领域所有人都承认中国和美国是人工智能竞争中唯二的玩家，其他国家（地区）连望其项背都谈不上，包括台湾。当然，台湾现在在半导体竞赛方面很出色（现在除此之外台湾还擅长什么？），但在20年后，该领域也将被（大陆）横扫。

[–]kevincrazykid
honestly, id take unofficial but cordial relations with EU and US over diplomatic relations with some third world nations any day. Those countries just want money anyway, friends that you have to buy with money are never true friends.

坦率地说，不管何时，我都更想要与欧盟和美国之间的非正式但活跃的关系，而不是和第三世界国家的正式外交关系。那些国家只是想要钱，你必须用钱才能换来的朋友不是真正的朋友。

[–]chinaxiha
if the US is a true friend of taiwan, why doesn't it bring diplomatic relations with China and recognize ROC instead?

如果美国是台湾真正的朋友，那它为什么不断绝与中国的外交关系，转而承认中华民国呢？

[–]JayTeeLaramie
The USA reversed itself on that around 1979, I think. Apparently when the West made deals with Deng to bring manufacturing to the mainland.
Other important relations remained in place, such as the defense treaty to support Taiwan.

我认为，美国在1979年前后自我调整了。显然，也就是当西方与邓爷爷达成协议将制造业转移到中国大陆的时候。
（美国与台湾）其他重要的关系仍然存在，例如支持台湾的防御条约。

[–]chinaxiha
The USA reversed itself on that around 1979, I think. Apparently when the West made deals with Deng to bring manufacturing to the mainland.
Other important relations remained in place, such as the defense treaty to support Taiwan.
yea. but if the US is a true friend of taiwan, why not just cut off relations with PRC and get relations on ROC? Just completely cut out PRC and bring the unofficial ties with ROC to the forefront? Surely, the US as a true friend of the ROC can just give up the economic relations with the PRC.

“我认为，美国在1979年前后自我调整了。显然，也就是当西方与邓爷爷达成协议将制造业转移到中国大陆的时候。
（美国与台湾）其他重要的关系仍然存在，例如支持台湾的防御条约”
是的。但如果美国是台湾真正的朋友，为什么不直接切断与中华人民共和国的外交关系，转而与台湾建交呢？就是把中华人民共和国完全排除在外，把与台湾的非官方联系正式化？当然，作为台湾真正的朋友，美国可以放弃与中华人民共和国的经济关系。

[–]JayTeeLaramie
Things aren't that simple.
Western countries have wanted to trade with China for centuries and it was only when the CCP shut the mainland off from the rest of the world that this stopped.
The disastrous US-Vietnam war provided Henry Kissinger the chance to persuade US President Nixon to restore relations with China in spite of moral reasons not to.
If the US govt. or Western multinational corporations operated on any moral principle or wisdom, they would not have any relations with the CCP and would support only Taiwan.
But the truth is that people in power in the West LOVE the way the CCP maintains its power, without any troublesome human rights or workers' rights, so the USA keeps a military alliance with Taiwan, Japan and South Korea as a control over China's power, while we use Chinese labor to destroy our own Western cultures and social systems through globalization.
I don't think the diplomatic recognition is very important compared to other things that are going on.

事情没那么简单。
几个世纪以来，西方国家一直想与中国进行贸易往来，直到TG关闭了中国大陆与世界的联系，才中止了这一做法。
灾难性的美越战争为亨利•基辛格提供了一个机会，让他说服美国总统尼克松恢复与中国的关系，尽管道德上有理由不这么做。
如果美国政府或西方跨国公司坚守任何道德原则或智慧，他们就不会与TG有任何关系，而只会支持台湾。
但事实是，西方当权者的热爱TG掌权的方式，没有任何麻烦的人权或工人权利的困扰，因此美国与台湾、日本和韩国保持军事同盟，作为一股管控中国的力量，而我们却用中国的劳动力通过全球化摧毁了我们自己的西方文化和社会体系。
与其他正在发生的事情相比，我不认为外交上的认可有多重要。

[–]Bobodzadza 
People stop propping up the myth usa helped china to open up! It was china that actively persuaded the usa to open up factories and pour in fdi into the mainland.

人们不要再支持美国帮助中国开放的神话了！正是中国自己积极地说服美国开放工厂，向大陆注入外国直接投资。

[–]Nefelia 
while we use Chinese labor to destroy our own Western cultures and social systems through globalization.
Globalization is happening whether the US wishes to participate or not.
Apple - for instance - can either choose to partake of cheap Chinese labour (working in Taiwanese-owned factories, btw)... or it can watch as its competitors do so.
Besides which, the bulk of manufacturing job-losses in the US are due to automation in US factories, rather than outsourcing.

“而我们却用中国的劳动力通过全球化摧毁了我们自己的西方文化和社会体系”
不论美国是否希望参与，全球化都正在发生。
例如苹果，可以选择廉价的中国劳动力组装（顺便一提，他们在台资工厂工作）……要么它也可以眼睁睁看着竞争对手这么做。
此外，美国制造业岗位流失的主要原因是美国工厂的自动化，而非外包。

[–]chinaxiha
Things aren't that simple.
Western countries have wanted to trade with China for centuries and it was only when the CCP shut the mainland off from the rest of the world that this stopped.
The disastrous US-Vietnam war provided Henry Kissinger the chance to persuade US President Nixon to restore relations with China in spite of moral reasons not to.
i was just trying to make a point that there are no "friends" in international relations, only interests. all the european/US countries cut off taiwan and went with PRC because of $ and geopolitical reasons. its hypocritical to denounce panama/DR for doing the same as if they are gold diggers.

“事情没那么简单。
几个世纪以来，西方国家一直想与中国进行贸易往来，直到TG关闭了中国大陆与世界的联系，才中止了这一做法。
灾难性的美越战争为亨利•基辛格提供了一个机会，让他说服美国总统尼克松恢复与中国的关系，尽管道德上有理由不这么做。”
我只是想说明，在国际关系中没有“朋友”，只有利益。由于地缘政治的原因，所有欧美国家都断绝了与台湾的外交关系，转向了中华人民共和国，原因在于$和地缘政治。如果自己本身就是淘金者，却谴责巴拿马/多米尼加做同样的事情，那就太虚伪了。

[–]Nefelia 
Nations do not have friends, they have interests. Cutting ties with the PRC in favour to Taiwan would be disadvantageous to the US.
Besides which, the PRC vs. ROC diplomatic battle has already been settled, with the PRC the victor and the world following the 'One China' doctrine in their foreign policy.
By now the ROC is so heavily involved in the PRC's economy that anything aside from continuing the status-quo (or eventual unification) is unlikely.

国家没有朋友，只有利益。切断与中国大陆的联系而支持台湾，将对美国不利。
除此之外，中华人民共和国与“中华民国”的外交之战已经得到解决，在中国的外交政策中，中华人民共和国和世界都遵循“一个中国”的原则。
到目前为止，台湾与中国大陆经济联系如此密切，以至于除了继续维持现状（或最终统一）之外，任何其他情况都不太可能发生。

[–]chrmanyaki
Those countries just want money anyway, friends that you have to buy with money are never true friends.
This is so incredibly ignorant I don't even know where to start with you.

那些国家只是想要钱，你必须用钱才能换来的朋友不是真正的朋友。
这话是如此的无知，我竟然无言以对。

[–]kevincrazykid 
Dominican republic literally flipped because the chinese give them money, while earlier taiwanese attempted to keep dominican republic by giving them 50 hummers. Money for diplomatic recognition as a tactic had traditionally been widely employed by both taiwan and china. Maybe you are the one that's ignorant?

因为中国人给了他们钱，多米尼加共和国才真正地改变了，而早些时候，台湾试图通过给他们50辆悍马来保护多米尼加共和国。金援换取外交承认作为一种策略，一直被台湾和中国（大陆）广泛使用。也许你就是那个无知的人？

[–]chrmanyaki
That's literally what every country does tho. The EU and USA buy off third world governments all the time, I just don't get why it's suddenly a topic when China does it. What do you think that countries have these relationships out of friendliness and the good of their hearts?
At least so far China's approach to lifting third world countries up to be able to consume their products has been significantly more humane than bombing and exploiting them for profits.
The end goals are the same in the end but one seems significantly more sustainable right now.
I also don't get what you mean with "those countries just want money". Of course they fucking want money, "those" countries are poor as shit and have every reason to want that in exchange for whatever they have to offer to China.

这就是所有国家都在做的事情。欧盟和美国一直在收买第三世界国家的政府，我只是不明白为什么当中国这么做了，就突然变成一个话题了。你认为这些国家是出于友好和它们的好心才搞这种外交关系的吗？
至少到目前为止，中国提升第三世界国家消费能力的方式，比起轰炸它们和剥削它们的利润更加人道。
最终的目标是相同的，但其中一种方式看起来更加可持续。
我也不明白你说“那些国家只想要钱”想表达什么。它们当然tmd想要钱，“那些”国家穷得像shi一样，他们有充分的理由想拿它们所拥有的一切来交换中国的钱。

[–]mapletune台北 - Taipei City 
less than 20 now~ Though we've lost a dozen since 2000 and not much has changed.

还剩不到20个友邦了~尽管自2000年以来，我们已经损失了一打友邦，并且这趋势也没怎么变化。

[–]ShrimpCrackers 
Actually, Taiwan has more visa free status to nations now than ever. Its increased to the point that virtually all major destination minus the most third world of nations are good to go. So in a sense diplomatic ties are stronger.

事实上，台湾现在比以往任何时候都有更多的签证自由。免签范围增加到了几乎所有值得一去的主要目的地，那些最第三世界的国家除外。因此，在某种意义上，外交关系其实更加强大了。

[–]chinaxiha 
why do taiwanese still go to prc embassies for help? Don't taiwanese view PRC as the enemy and view ROC as a separate country?

那为什么台湾人还会跑去中国大使馆寻求帮助？难道台湾人不把中华人民共和国视为敌人，并把“中华民国”视为一个独立的国家吗？