【Quora】为什么美国不让加州独立？ [美国媒体]

Why doesn't the USA give California independence?

为什么美国不让加州独立？



一、Why doesn't the USA give California independence?

美国为什么不让加州独立？

Harrison Shone, Mostly Unemployed (1998-present) · Answered Oct 9, 2017 · 935 Views
For several reasons…
Most Californians don’t want independence from the United States. Only a fringe minority does. Same with Texas.
Secession is illegal. No state or territory can secede from the United States unless a constitutional amendment is created to allow this, which is very unlikely.
States require foreign recognition to be seen as legitimate. If they did succeed without the U.S recognizing them, nobody else would recognize them either thanks to the global power and influence of the U.S.
They would never be ablate fight their way out. The U.S army is too powerful, and they would have NATO for assistance.

有下面几个原因…
大多数加利福尼亚人并不是真想脱离美国。只有处于边缘的少数人群才想独立出去。和德克萨斯一样。
分裂国土是非法的。任何一个州或地区的领土都不能脱离美国，除非重新制定宪法修正案来允许这样做，而这是根本不可能的。
只有其他过节都承认的国家才被认为是合法的。就算他们在美国不同意的情况下独立了出去，因为美国的全球实力和影响力，也不会有国家会承认他们。
他们永远也无法真正摆脱美国，美国军队的实力太强大了，并且美军还有北约做后援。

Jude Brown, Journalist, Psychic & Medium · Updated Oct 14, 2017 · 138 Views
Yeah, that's right: a state with a Democratic governor and legislature has created such a vibrant economy, only five entire countries on planet earth do better.
Unfortunately, like the rest of the healthy economy Blue States, California's tax dollars get stolen to prop up the failed economy welfare Red States, whose Republican policies have driven their economies into the ground.
Blue State, Red Face: Guess Who Benefits More From Your Taxes?
But California can afford to be generous.
Also, nearly half of U.S. produce is grown in California: so y'all would literally starve without us.
https://www.google.com/search?q=...
Only 18% of Californians approve of Calexit — a movement that was funded by Russia, and whose leader has fled back to Moscow.
Nearly 70 Percent of Californians Oppose Seceding from the Union
Calexit leader drops California secession effort to make Russia his ‘new home’
Republicans colluding with Russia is a bigger movement than the secession of California.

美国不会允许加利福尼亚独立的，因为这就像一个无底洞，会耗尽整个国家的元气。
加利福尼亚州是美国最大的经济体——德克萨斯州位居第二，却只有它经济体的一半。
这就是加利福尼亚州经济的真正规模。
加利福尼亚州是世界第六大经济体，并且还在成长中。
加州能否成为第五大经济体么？小心了，英国。
是的，没错：一个拥有民主党州长和立法机构的州创造了如此充满活力的经济体，地球上只有五个国家比他做得更好。
不幸的是，像其他经济健康的蓝色州（译者注：红州与蓝州是指美国近年来选举得票数分布的倾向，表示的是共和党和民主党在各州的势力:红色代表共和党，蓝色代表民主党。）一样，加州的税收被偷来支撑经济失败的红州福利，这些州的共和党政策已经把他们的经济拖入了谷底。
蓝色州，红脖子：猜猜看谁从你们的税收中拿走的利益更多？
但是加利福尼亚州有慷慨大方的实力。
另外，美国将近一半的农产品都是在加利福尼亚州种植出来的：因此，如果没有我们，你们就会饿死。
只有18%的加利福尼亚州人赞成卡莱斯特运动——这是一个由俄罗斯资助的运动，其领导人已经逃回莫斯科。近70%的加利福尼亚州人反对脱离美国联邦。
卡莱斯特运动的领导人已经放弃让加利福尼亚州独立出来，把俄罗斯当做新家了。
共和党人与俄罗斯勾结是一个比让加利福尼亚州分裂更大的问题。

Caspian Forsyth, lives in California · Answered Oct 9, 2017 · 77 Views
California doesn’t want independence.
A tiny sliver of Californians want independence. So do a tiny sliver of Texans, New Yorkers, Floridians, Alaskans, Vermonters, and so on. They remain a tiny sliver.
Somewhat more Californians have answered recent opinion polls in a pro-secession manner, but an opinion poll for a situation that virtually everyone agrees is impossible is not a realistic uation of true support for secession.
So why would the United States grant California independence when California doesn’t want independence, and the sum total of Californians who actually, truly want independence are small enough in number to have their annual convention at a Dennys?

加利福尼亚不想独立。
只有非常小的一部分人想要加利福尼亚州独立。还有非常小的一部分德州人、纽约人、佛罗里达人、阿拉斯加人、佛蒙特人等等。他们加起来也仍然只是很小的一小条。
更多的加利福尼亚人最近参与了支持分裂的民意测验，但调查结果显示，几乎每个人都表示这是不现实的，允许脱离美国联邦是不可能发生的事情。
那么，在加利福尼亚州不想独立的情况下，为什么美国要给予加利福尼亚州独立的许可呢？而真正想要加利福尼亚州独立的人数是非常少的，以至于他们每年都得在丹尼里举行一次投票大会？

Harvey Murray, Freelance philosopher · Answered Oct 9, 2017 · 128 Views
They are a big agricultural state that needs cheap labor. So they simple don’t want to comply with any laws that make it harder (or more expensive) to get that labor. Especially they billionaires who are make the big money or their sweat.

他们（加利福尼亚州）是一个农业大州，需要廉价的劳动力。所以他们只是简单地不想遵守任何使得劳动变得更加困难（或者说变得更昂贵）的法律。尤其是那些赚大钱还想流汗的亿万富翁。

Anonymous · Answered Oct 9, 2017 · 38 Views
US States cannot secede from the Union, the Civil War resolved that question

美国各州不能脱离美联邦的问题，一场内战就全部解决了。

二、Why doesn't the USA let Hawaii become independent?

为什么美国不让夏威夷独立？

Anonymous · Answered Mar 1, 2017 · 290 Views
I would say the USA don’t let Hawaii become independent because it’s not that simple. Nearly every polling district voted in FAVOR of becoming a state - “yes” to statehood was at a 17 to 1 margin. That’s overwhelmingly in favor. The people of the Territory of Hawaii CHOSE to be the state of Hawaii.
Plus, untangling from the USA, if even possible, would cut off 1.4 million people from the benefits of being American. And, if you think millions want to lose Social Security, Medicare, SNAP, WIC, School Lunch, Highway money, Welfare, Federal Student Loans, Tsunami warning technology…and literally thousands of other benefits…I believe you are mistaken. Billions of investment from America and fellow Americans would be lost overnight and replaced with….what?
I hope this doesn’t come across as too much reality. But, Hawaii is isolated and distant. Yet, still a critically important place. If the USA and Hawaii parted ways, defenseless, starving and poor Hawaii would be a target for the rapidly expanding Chinese. How much better would they fare under the “protection” of China or some other power?
This also does not suppose that what happened in the 1898 overthrow was “right”…how it went down was just how things happened in the 19th Century. Don’t think that eventually someone in the early 20th century - likely the Japanese - would have completely overlooked Hawaii at some point. Or, even with the monarchy, business interests wouldn’t have eventually forced out the monarchy anyway. There are so many scenarios that would / could have happened, we can’t just have a naive belief that if America hadn’t annexed Hawaii, things would have gone on as they were forever.

我想说的是，美国不会允许夏威夷独立的，这件事情根本不是那么简单的。几乎每一个区都投票反对夏威夷独立成国，赞成与反对的比例是一比十七,反对独立的结果是压倒性的。夏威夷这领土上的居民选择留在美联邦。
此外，如果真要独立的话，与美国分离将使140万人无法享受美国生活带来的好处。如果你认为数以百万计的人都想要失去社会保障、医疗保险、SNAP、WIC、学校午餐、公路资金、福利、联邦学生贷款、海啸预警技术…还有成千上万的其他好处，…我相信你一定是搞错了。来自美国和美国其他地区同胞的数十亿投资将在一夜之间失去，取而代之的是…会是什么？
我希望这种情况不会出现。毕竟，夏威夷与世隔绝，相距内陆地理位置遥远。然而，仍然是一个至关重要的地方。如果美国和夏威夷分道扬镳了，手无寸铁、饥饿和贫穷的夏威夷将迅速沦为成为中国扩张的目标（躺枪，这特么关中国毛线事啊）。在中国或其他国家的“保护”下，他们会过得能有多好呢？
这不是说我支持1898年发生的事情是对的（译者注：1898年美国吞并夏威夷）…在十九世纪他就那样发生了。不要以为在二十世纪初会有某人——很可能是日本人——在某种程度上会完全忽视（放过）夏威夷。或者说，即使是君主制，商业利益最终也不会迫使君主制下台。有那么多可能的情况会发生，我们不能只是天真地相信，如果美国没有吞并夏威夷，他可以一直这样保留下去。

Richard Becker · Answered Jul 25, 2017 · 90 Views
Because it is a state of the United States… which voted overwhelmingly to join the Union in 1959. Even if the U.S. granted independence to Hawaii it would be difficult for them to maintain it. What people forget is that it isn’t just Hawaii and the U.S. in a vacuum with no other countries involved. Even in the 19th century other nations would have liked to annex Hawaii, but no others did because they were not certain how the U.S. would have reacted to an annexation. Basically other nations were told(I forget which President) that the annexation of Hawaii would be considered an unfriendly act towards the U.S., as a hostile fleet based there would be a threat to the west coast of this country. That is still true today. Because of that, and other actions of a similar type, the Hawaiian islands were considered by other nations(Great Britain, Russia, Japan, Germany etc.) to be in the American” sphere of influence” and as such off- limits for annexation. When the U.S. annexed the islands in 1898 no other nation, not even Great Britain, protested very much as it was not worth jeopardizing their relations with the U.S. over Hawaii. In fact when Princess Ka’iulani traveled to London to try to get British support for the Hawaiian monarchy against the U.S. she was basically told that the United Kingdom was not going to risk a war with America to restore their monarchy, even though the U.K. had a Queen themselves. Even in the 21st century the strategic location of Hawaii in the middle of the Pacific Ocean requires the U.S. to maintain a fleet in the islands to protect the west coast. Imagine if Japan, instead of attacking Pearl Harbor, had been able to attack from Pearl Harbor to bomb Los Angeles, San Diego or San Francisco. Hawaiian independence, if not annexed by the U.S. in 1898, would not have lasted past 1941, as Imperial Japan would have easily occupied the islands, and Japanese colonial rule would have been a disaster for the Hawaiians, as shown by Japanese rule in Korea, Formosa, and Occupied China. It is far better for the inhabitants of Hawaii to be part of the world’s most stable democracy. As a state Hawaii has all the benefits and civil rights equal in all respects to the other 49 states. Besides it’s a wonderful place to visit and American citizens don’t even need a passport.

因为他是美国的一个州，他们在1959年以一边倒的投票优势加入了美联邦。即使美国准予夏威夷独立，他们也很难维持生计。人们都忘记了，这可不仅仅是夏威夷脱离美国的问题。在19世纪，其他国家也有想要吞并夏威夷的，但没有国家敢真的这样做，因为他们不确定如果吞并了夏威夷美国会有什么反应。事实上，其他国家被警告（具体哪位总统我忘了），吞并夏威夷将被认为视作是对美国的不友好行为，该国会对美国的西海岸造成威胁。今天仍然如此。因此，夏威夷群岛被其他国家(英国、俄罗斯、日本、德国等)认为属于美国的“势力范围”，所以没人敢来吞并。1898年，当美国吞并夏威夷岛屿时，其他国家，甚至是英国，都没有提出抗议，因为在夏威夷问题上，大家认为不值因此得损害它们与美国的关系。事实上，当卡尤拉尼公主前往伦敦试图争取英国支持他们反对美国占领夏威夷取消君主制时，她被告知，英国不会为了保护他们的君主制，冒险与美国开战，尽管英国自己也有一位女王。即使在二十一世纪，夏威夷在太平洋中部的战略位置也使得美国不得不在群岛留下一支舰队以保护西海岸。想象一下，如果当初日本没有攻击珍珠岛，而是从珍珠港袭击洛杉矶、圣地亚哥或旧金山。如果美国没有在1898年吞并夏威夷，夏威夷的独状态也不会超过1941年，因为日本帝国很容易占领这些岛屿，而日本的殖民统治对夏威夷人来说将是一场灾难，就像日本在朝鲜、台湾和被占领的中国殖民地所表现的那样。对夏威夷居民来说，成为世界上最稳定的民主国家的一部分才更好的选择。作为一个州，夏威夷在所有方面与其他49个州一同享有平等的所有福利和公民权利。此外，这真的是一个旅游的的好去处，美国公民甚至不需要护照。

Jacqui Marlin, former teacher · Answered Jul 28, 2017 · 94 Views
Perhaps I should ask you why doesn’t the USA let Texas become independent? Hawai`i became the 50th state on August 21, 1959. Prior to that it was an independent nation but once it became a state it is ruled by the laws of secession that any other state in the union would have to abide by. And since there are no rules dictating how any state can secede it would be very difficult.
Other reasons IF it were a possibility are political and monetary. You have probably heard “in unity there is strength.” Hawai`i is situated strategically in the Pacific Ocean and militarily it is the first line of defense from attack from the West. Without the rest of the union behind it, Hawai`i would be quite vulnerable.
Because it is a small and spread out state there would not be enough of a financial base to support its independence. It takes a lot of money to run a country and if Hawai`i was an independent nation it would have to duplicate many services now provided by the Federal Government. In other words, it just wouldn’t be feasible for Hawai`i to become independent as a nation in the world.

也许我该问你，为什么美国不让德克萨斯独立？1959年8月21日，夏威夷成为美国的第50个州。在此之前，它是一个独立的国家，但一旦它成为一个州，它就必须接受国家宪法的统治反对分裂，这是所有州都必须遵守的。因为宪法没有规定允许联邦辖下的州分离独立，这将是非常困难的。
就算可以真的独立出去，也会有其他问题比如政治和货币。你应该听说过“团结就是力量”。夏威夷位于太平洋的战略位置，在军事上是抵御西边攻击的第一道防线。如果没有联邦的其他成员支持，夏威夷人就会很脆弱。
因为它的领土面积小而分散，没有足够的财政基础来支持它的独立。管理一个国家需要大量的资金，如果夏威夷是一个独立的国家，它将不得自主承担联邦政府现在提供的许多服务。换句话说，夏威夷作为一个国家在世界上独立是不可行的。

Elwood Wyatt, 50+ years of various forms of surfing. · Answered Apr 8, 2018 · 15 Views
Hawaii doesn’t want independence! Despite any hoopla raised by vocal TMT opponents, the vast majority of the residents of Hawaii are quite happy to be American citizens and would fight to maintain that status were it truly at risk.

夏威夷不想独立！尽管有不少声名狼藉的家伙叫嚣着要独立，但绝大多数夏威夷居民都很高兴成为美国公民，并将努力维持这一状态，如果真的有什么令这种局面处于危险之中，他们会为维持这一地位而战斗。

Rick Vincent, lives in Hawaii (2010-present) · Answered Feb 11, 2018 · 32 Views
To put it bluntly … Hawaii hasn’t advanced a measure before the US Government to secede from the US. Whether for the reasons listed below or not, is unknown. I really just think that the idea is not yet popular enough, even among the residents here.

坦白说，…夏威夷州还没有向美国政府提出脱离美国的申请。至于是否出于以上所说原因，尚不清楚。我真的觉得这个想法不受欢迎，甚至在夏威夷当地的居民中也是如此。

Bruce Allen Oatway, lives in Hawai‘i · Answered Mar 4, 2017 · 46 Views
Military imperialism.

军事帝国主义

三、If-Hawaii-declared-independence-from-USA-and-USA-attacked-Hawaii-what-would-China-do

如果夏威夷宣布独立，然后美国袭击了夏威夷，中国会有什么反应？

Anonymous · Answered Feb 22, 2017 · 194 Views
The hypothesis is interesting…but so removed from reality it’s not worth considering. If Hawaii declared / fought for independence, and by some miracle the US did not decide or was not able to retain them as part of the Union, then this would mean the US had grown very weak - and China likely very strong. In my opinion, it would only be a matter of time until China assumed control of the islands. Hawaii’s strategic importance can not be denied even in the modern naval era.
While it’s too bad that the 1898 overthrow of Hawaii went down the way that it did, in the end, the people of Hawaii have drawn significant benefits from being part of the USA. Look at other, independent Pacific island nations…they, by and large, are all far less secure and advanced as Hawaii.
Add to that the generous benefits of American citizenship…just by virtue of birth. If you are struggling, SNAP, Welfare, Social Security, AFDC, WIC, EITC and so many more things that make day to day life even possible. What could possibly be done to replace all this federally provided gravy? Not to mention the income from domestic tourism.
Breaking out of the USA would mean creating a currency (backed by what?), creating a military (to defend against China or the USA?), keeping the US gravy train of transfer payments going to the population - or facing eventual revolt again. And these two major stumbling blocks are just the beginning…Scotland faced the reality when considering leaving the UK…they based their future income on north sea oil…which looked rosy at the time, and then oil prices collapsed.
Many of the separatists have pie in the sky ideas about the US military staying and paying rent to create a GNP for the kingdom…ask Cuba how that’s worked out for them at Guantanamo. Tourism could be hobbled by visa or travel restrictions from the USA. Sure, the Jones act would be lifted, but it would be possible to isolate these isolated islands in a way that would exact a horrifying human toll. All of the presumes an upsetting of the world order, which I can’t rule out.
Again, I get that how things went down in the 19th century would not, could not and should not happen today…but, it is what it is and it happened. A large majority of ethnic Hawaiians voted to JOIN the USA in the late 50’s; they saw the benefit of being a state. Better idea in Hawaii is how to exert their influence and importance and get more swag for being a state. Work with the system and work the system to your benefit.

这个假设很有趣，…但是脱离了现实，这是不值得考虑的。如果夏威夷宣布独立或者为独立而战，而由于某种奇迹，美国没有阻拦或是无法保留它们作为联邦的一部分，那么这将意味着美国变得非常虚弱-而中国可能已经非常强大了。在我看来，中国接管这些岛屿只是时间问题。即使对现代海军，夏威夷的战略重要性也不容否认。
虽然1898年美国吞并夏威夷过程比较糟糕，但最终，夏威夷人民从成为美国的一部分中获得了巨大的利益。看看其他独立的太平洋岛国…总的来说，它们都远不如夏威夷那么安全和先进。
再加上拥有美国国籍所能获得的慷慨的福利——仅仅因为你出生在这里。如果你还在犹豫，SNAP，福利，社会保障，AFDC，WIC，EITC等等让日常生活变得更好的这些公民权利。我们能做些什么来取代这些联邦提供的福利呢？更不用说国内旅游的收入了。
离开美国意味着你还得自己穿凿一套货币（用什么来支撑这套货币体系呢）建立国防（防止中国和美国的入侵），是继续留在美国享受转移支付提供给人民的美差，还是面对又一次（独立）起义。这两个主要的障碍只是开始——当初苏格兰打算离开英国时所要面对的现实……他们把未来放在北海石油的收入上……当时看起来前景可观，然后石油价格暴跌。
不少分裂主义者突发奇想认为独立之后可以留着美军，让他们支付租金为国家创收……问问古巴在关塔那摩他们是怎么解决的。美国的签证或旅行限制可能会阻碍夏威夷的旅游业的发展。当然，《琼斯法案》将被取消，但最大的可能这些孤立的岛屿将被隔离开来，这样会造成可怕的人员伤亡。所有这些都预示着世界秩序的混乱，我认为这种情况是不能排除的。
我知道十九世纪的事情是怎么发生的，今天不能也不应该再发生