嘿，霍金认为世上没有上帝，你知道吗？（二） [美国媒体]

Hey, Did You Know Stephen Hawking Thought There Is No God?

嘿，霍金认为世上没有上帝，你知道吗？（二）





WhoDatNinja
I find an Atheists view on God and existentialism much less interesting than say someone who is Agnostic like Einstein was. Although Einstein did believe in God/possibility of God and his views were more against the idea of organized religion (and he had huge problems with those in his Jewish faith) he still couldn’t fully, logically deny the possibility of a “creator”. In his view one such creator wouldn’t be involved with the minutiae of its creations and being a genie, should it exist.
I mean, humanity exhibits creationism. We can now almost create life from disparate building blocks and we can make many of the building blocks disparately. We also can control the fate of life in very specific and minute ways to grand ways. We breed and transplant life. We contaminate, as well and have the ability to affect an entire world. Singular people have been responsible for policies that have the fate of the world in their hands, to a degree.
We have no evidence of what created the Universe, just, perhaps, when OUR specific Universe was started but not how that matter began to exist in the first place. We have more evidence on creators than we do on how something can start from “nothing”. Since, presumably given the laws of physics we’ve established so far that nothing can be created from nothing.

我觉得无神论者关于上帝和存在主义的观点，远没有像爱因斯坦这样的不可知论者那么有趣。虽然爱因斯坦确实信仰上帝/相信上帝存在的可能性，但他的观点更多地反对有规律可循的宗教观念（在他的犹太人信仰中对这个有大意见），他仍然不完全否定“创世主”的可能性。在他看来，一个这样的创世主不会参与其创作的太多细枝末节，如果像这么一般，上帝只是一个魔仆。（基督教的圣经，是在犹太教的圣经里面添加的《新约》，犹太教还在等待他们的救世主，相信总有一天上帝会回来，而基督教认为救世主就是耶稣，耶稣是上帝的儿子，也是上帝的真身之一 ，犹太教不认可这个上帝。译注）



whatskinja
I’m sorry if facts do not interest you.

@Phantom_Renegade 遗憾地是，真相也觉得你无聊。

Phantom_Renegade
How is saying ‘maybe, dunno really’ a fact?

@whatskinja 那说了“也许，不确定” 真相就会告诉你们了吗 赞3

WhoDatNinja
Hawkings flirted far more with outright atheism than agnosticism. Of course, he got into moods and went deep down both paths at various times of his life. His views are still quite the contrast with Einsteins, most of the time even if very similar, in this regard. Though if it makes you feel better you can call Hawkings more agnostic. It’s really trivial, in the end, either way.
And maybe butch up on researching what is life, what is required to create it. We are FAR farther along than you seem to understand. I’m not saying we’ll get to making perfect multi-cellular beings tomorrow but the only major blocks, right now, are ethics concerns and financial gain more than anything else. Creation of simple single cell life is right around the corner, though.
Plus, we are able to create and alter life from the same soup mix. Which is more than what any other species could ever do, which is only reproduce naturally.
We have achieved the ability to produce life unnaturally in almost every conceivable way outside of taking non-genetic material and turning it into genetic material. And, again, we are already able to make chemical hallmarks of life and other “building blocks”. We also push the evolution of things through external pressures and smashing seeds together to create hybrids. Those techniques are also getting more and more sophisticated. That’s not creationism, but it certainly is intervention of natural processes.



Antiath
I like the way Physicist Lagrange answered when he was asked why there was no mention of God in his (important) theoritical work on Newtonian mechanics. He said God is just an uneeded hypothesis. Witty fellow.

@Saitamago我喜欢物理学家拉格朗日的答案，当他被问到为什么在牛顿力学里（重要）理论中没有提到上帝。他说上帝只是一个没有必要的假设。机智的家伙。赞8

boogs
you find agnostics more tolerable because they still pretend....but it’s still playing pretend.

@WhoDatNinja你会发现不可知论者还过得去，因为他们可以含糊不清......现在还蒙混得过去。赞1



500 Days of Kitten Calamari
We have more evidence on creators than we do on how something can start from “nothing”. Since, presumably given the laws of physics we’ve established so far that nothing can be created from nothing.
The universe didn’t start from nothing; it didn’t just spring into existence for no reason. The universe was created by natural processes from whatever came before it, and the universe we can see and are aware of is probably only a tiny fraction of reality.
We can see things come into existence purely by natural processes all the time throughout the universe and the wonderful science we’ve done from the macro level of whole galaxies to the most tiny minutia of quanta. Mind you, those quantum particles seem to pop into existence from, yes, you guessed it: nothing. We have no ability to understand exactly what excites tiny particles to ‘pop into existence’ but we can be pretty certain that it is, in fact, a natural process and not an intelligent creator.
So no, the fact that humans exist and create stuff is not a viable persuasive argument for the existence of an intelligent designer, because we see natural processes create “something” from “nothing” (which isn’t really nothing, just something we can’t detect or understand) all the time. Thus, there’s no reason to prefer the much more absurd notion that an intelligent entity orchestrated the existence of the universe than it is to just believe that our slice of reality popped into being as part of the natural ebb and flow of the universe’s natural processes - just like everything else.
I’d agree that the atheist perspective might be ‘less interesting’ in the sense that a more undecided perspective allows for all kinds of thought experiments, but the atheist perspective is the one founded on the scientific principles.
Also, as someone else mentioned, most atheists are agnostic; it’s not a matter of firmly stating “there is no god and therefore I don’t believe in god” but rather that “there is no evidence for a god and therefore I don’t believe in god”.

@WhoDatNinja
我们有更多关于创造者的证据，而不是我们可以从某事开始。因为，据推测，到目前为止，我们已经建立了物理定律，以至于没有任何东西可以创造。
宇宙并非一无所有;它不仅无缘无故地存在。宇宙是由自然过程创造的，但它不是现实的一小部分。
我们可以看到事物在整个宇宙中始终通过自然过程的过程而存在。记住你，是的，你猜对了：什么都没有。事实上，它是一个自然过程，而不是一个聪明的创造者。
所以不，事实上没有智能设计师这样的事情，因为我们看到自然过程从“没有”创造“某事”（这不是什么都没有，只是我们可以做的事情不要一直检测或理解。因此，没有理由相信自然过程的现实。就像其他一切一样。
从无神论的角度来看，无神论的观点是未来的观点之一。
所以，其他人提到，大多数无神论者是不可知论者;这不是一个固定的说法，“没有上帝，因此我不相信上帝”，而是“没有证据证明上帝，因此我不相信上帝”。
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Saitamago
No hypothesis is proven, there is only evidence that raises the probability it is true and an (as yet) failure to falsify it. For practical purposes we can be so sure of something there’s little hope of it being overturned. It will never be proven however.
However, you are of course right that the burden of proof is on theists. That’s irrelevant to the fact that gnostic theism and gnostic atheism are logically untenable positions.

@tsg没有任何假设得到证实，只有证据表明它是真实的，并且（至今）未能证伪。 出于实际目的，我们可以非常确定它被推翻的希望渺茫。 但它永远不会被证实。
但，你说的当然没错，因为举证责任在于有神论者。 这与可知有神论者和可知无神论者在逻辑上站不住脚的事实无关。



Woshiernog
Reminds me of this image I saw earlier this year:

@Saitamago 到是想起今年早些看到的一张图。



Robb审核中
If God can do everything...why cant he make a rock big enough that he cant lift??

如果上帝是全能的。。。为什么他无法造个自己无法抬起来的石头？？

the-duckster审核中
Newsflash:“Smart guy isn’t stupid”

快讯：“圣贤无过”

Green Handtruck
Whatever created the universe could easily be called God. It’s a 3 letter word. As for an afterlife... Maybe not yet, but who knows someone could create one someday. A Digital Afterlife.

无论创造什么宇宙都可以被称为上帝。 这是一个3个字母的单词。 至于来世......也许还没有，但谁知道呢，总有一天有谁就可以创造一个出来。 一个数字化的来世。（像数码相片那样展示出来的来世 译注）

Vagrant
Stephen Hawking knew there was no god, he didn’t think it. Let’s avoid the regular believer vs atheist discussion.

斯蒂芬霍金知道没有上帝，他不需用“想”这事。 好了，散伙，结束忠实信徒与无神论者的辩论。

50ShadesOfJimGray
No, he believed there was no god. As a scientist, absent the definitive proof — which is nigh on impossible here — he would not say he knew there was no god. It’s beyond the Scientific Method, it can’t be tested and replicated, so he would not say he knew that to a certainty.

@Vagrant 哦不，我从没想过他会说那样的话。但是，作为一名科学家，缺乏明确的证据-证据几乎不可能存在。他不该说他知道没有上帝的。科学方法目前无法做到。无法测试也无法复制，他本不该说的那么肯定。赞3



crazy among the insane审核中
which is nigh on impossible here
No, it is simply impossible to prove there isn’t a God (because it is generally impossible to prove a negative), but the problem is that the proof of God can only be obtained personally because we each have the free will to choose to ignore that inward search. [As a scientist, though, I think the missing 5/6ths of the universe (dark matter) and the fact that we have proof of a point source for the universe (Big Bang) are pretty good candidates for showing that something mysterious and far greater than ourselves and our current scientific understanding is going on. But sitting next to my wife and suggesting Five Guys’ fries right before she expresses her desire that we swing by there to get some is also a sign of some really weird shit being possible at the human level of existence. Most people are too focused on their desires and too wrapped up in distraction to be open to such subtle information flows, however.]
Remember, the scientific method is a human creation and the nature of our Unfathomable Creator is just that: mostly unknowable. But that doesn’t mean we aren’t designed to interface with Its universe’s system of right and wrong for the self-development of both ourselves and our societies. Regardless, holding our Creator’s design of our selves and how we fit into this universe to a metric of our own creation is hubris at its worst (finest?).
Our free will is our greatest gift (a gift our Creator does not step on) and we have a negative force that acts upon our hearts and minds to push us away from love and unity towards hatred and divisiveness by first pushing us away from belief into stubborn disbelief. Look around this world to have all the proof of its disasterous effects, and yet we each *KNOW* the power of happiness that comes from acts of selfless compassion and kindness. And know that the Nazis didn’t prove that Germans are evil, just that lots of any people can deny our goodness and band together in ignorance and evil to create an inertia of the most brutal oppression; likewise, the myriad false religious teachers don’t sully the truth of religion, they merely demonstrate the fallability of human beings who seek power and those who don’t critically hold them to a higher standard of non-hypocrisy.
We are each moral creatures; you know FOR A FACT that punching a child in the face is wrong. This is because morality is an essential part of our nature. But we can only perfect our own personal morality by first contacting our Creator by going within and beseeching It for help.
Remember, ignorance is totally allowed, as is becoming a hateful racist or brutal oppressor that lies about everything (Trump), but just because something is possible does NOT mean that it is right.
This is the explanation of creation and our hkngfbng

@50ShadesOfJimGray 证据几乎不可能存在
不，根本不可能证明没有上帝（因为无法举反证），但问题是关于上帝存在的证据掌握在于个人，因为我们每个人都有自由选择的意愿，会忽略向内探索。
[作为一名科学家，我认为宇宙中遗漏的六分之五的（暗物质）能量以及我们有宇宙本源证明（大爆炸）这一事实可以非常有力的证明世上存在神秘而远比我们自己更伟大的存在。
我们目前的科学知识仍在增长。
举个例子，坐在我老婆旁边,在她表达想去“五个家伙”买薯条之前（类似麦当劳的快餐店 译注），早一步开口建议去那里买点薯条。



Arai-the fly on the wal
Not exactly a religious person myself, but I’d argue that IF there’s a greater being such as a God, or any greater being for that matter really, human would be as insignificant and human mind would be as incapable of understanding such being as a microbe living in our stomach trying to understand that they’re living inside another organism that created the world they inhabit.
In other word if God is real, they might not care as much at us just as we never cared much for those microbes unless they started to cause trouble to our health. And in case that happen then it’s time to take some pepto-bismol.

我并不完全算个宗教人士，但我认为，如果有一个像上帝这样的更大的存在，或者真的存在更大的存在，那么人类是微不足道的，而人类的思想也无法理解这样的存在。
就像在我们胃里的微生物尝试去理解一个创造了他们居住世界的另外一个有机体。
换句话说，如果上帝是真实的，他们可能并不在乎我们，就像我们从不关心那些微生物一样，除非它们开始给我们的健康带来麻烦。如果发生这种情况，那么就该吃点佩托比斯摩（肠胃药 译注 另外译者喜欢这个观点）。
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crazy among the insane
God cares, but has given us the power of free will which means we are capable of ignoring Its existence and rules for choosing good over evil. In other words, God only cares if we do, otherwise we are each free to be Hitleresque.

@Arai-the fly on the wall上帝关心我们的，但他给了我们自由意志的力量，这意味着我们能够忽视上帝的存在和选择善恶。
换句话说，如果我们信上帝，上帝就关心我们，否则我们每个人都可以自由地成为希特勒那样的人。

Vagrant
So, if you use your free will that god gave you to choose not to believe in him - you’re Hitleresque. So my only two choices are to believe in god, or be Hitleresque. I love this. That’s great and very FREE will - you will use it how I want, otherwise burn in eternal fires of thousand Suns. Wait a second... Now I am confused who is more Hitleresque in that scenario.

@crazy among the insane 所以，如果你使用上帝给你的自由意志的权利却选择不相信他 - 你就是希特勒那样的人。
所以在我看来只有2个选择：相信上帝，或者成为希特勒。这个想法真棒。
这是伟大而且非常非常自由的意志 - 你必须按照我想要的方式去使用它，否则会受千万太阳的永恒之火的焚刑。
等一下......现在我很困惑这种情况下谁才是希特勒。赞1



StrollingRones（审核中）
It’s a strong opinion, to be sure,...
Atheism is not an opinion. It’s a rejection of unsubstantiated claims that a caucasian old man with a white beard exists with the ability to hack gambling machines in Las Vegas so the religious player/god fan wins the jackpot.
Because there is no other concept of a god that would make sense, with the knowledge of Physics and Cosmology we have today. There can’t be any single reality based entity that “created” the universe.
It’s easy to show that’s true because the concept of “god” is a human mental invention and if that fateful asteroid had not wiped out the dinosaurs 64 million years ago, humans would not be around to ponder the existence of an imaginary being that can fulfill their financial wishes and make them rich - Prosperity Gospel, anyone?
Since humans are irrelevant to the universe (I’m copyrighting my theory of Cosmological Reality soon), anything created by human imagination is also irrelevant to the universe, therefore no human generated abstract concept created the universe.
And in response to some other comments regarding agnosticism, agnostics are theists “lite”, because they admit that there may be a possibility that existence of a god may be proven, which is false by definition.
As another poster said earlier, no one is agnostic about Santa Clause. Very good point. We know it’s a fairy tale therefore we can claim we are “a-Santa-ists” and make a true statement that Santa Clause does not exist. Neither does any god, from volcano gods of pre-history to Las-Vegas-slot-machine-hacker gods of the present.

》》》确实，这是一种冲击性的说法。。。
无神论不是一种观点。是一种拒绝未经证实的说法的方式，那个说法关于存在留着白胡子的白种人老人，能够在拉斯维加斯黑掉赌博机，让宗教玩家/神的粉丝赢得大奖。
我们今天拥有物理学和宇宙学的知识，没有其他神的概念存在是有意义的。不可能有任何单一现实的实体“创造”了宇宙。
这个观点很容易证明的，因为“上帝”的概念是一种人类的心灵发明，如果那个命中注定的小行星没有在6400万年前消灭恐龙，那么人类就没什么机会寻思怎么粉饰自己在财政上想实现富裕，繁荣的愿望。是吧？

既然人类与宇宙无关（我很快会对这个宇宙现实理论进行版权保护），人类想象所创造的任何事物也与宇宙无关，因此没有任何人类创立的抽象概念创造了宇宙。
在这回应下其他关于不可知论一些评论，不可知论者是有神论者的“精简版本”，因为他们承认可能存在可能证明存在的神，这在定义上是错误的。
正如前面另一个帖子所说的，没有人觉得圣诞老人不可知。说得很好。我们都知道这是一桩童话故事，我们可以声称我们是“圣诞老人”，并且真实地声明圣诞老人不存在。从史前的火山神到现在的拉斯维加斯老虎机黑客之神，也没有任何神存在。赞1

ArmosKnight
As a British person, this is all a bit weird

作为一名英国人，我觉得所有事都有点怪。赞4

BestInSlot
Right? I actually assume most people I meet are atheist.

真？我实际上认为自己认识的大部分人都是无神论者。赞3


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philphil
I can only daydream what it would be like living in a country not governed by superstitious beliefs.

想生活在一个不受迷信信仰支配的国家，我只能做白日梦 赞6

Just Another Gawkfugee
Imagine.
It’s easy if you try.

@philphil 想象一下
其实很容易你试一下， 赞2

Dr_Spork
Best possible reference. John Lennon would be proud.

@Just Another Gawkfugee 引用得不错，约翰列侬会自豪的。

（译注：其实楼上的那几句话来自约翰列侬的最火的专辑 《想象》 。让听众去想象一个没有宗教派别、民族界限造成的战火与隔阂的世界，并且讨论了人们生活在更少物质财富世界的可能性。
列侬和日本妻子小野洋子住在英国乡下一幢豪华的别墅里。年初的某一天的早晨，列侬起床后在洋子的陪伴下，写下了歌词。
歌词很共产主义，但是因为披上了流行音乐的外衣，他的主张就火了
想象没有天堂的世界，
其实很容易，
我们的脚下再没有地狱，
抬头仰望，唯见一片天。
想象大家为了今生今世而活着...
想象一下没有国度的世界，
其实不难，
无人被杀戮或者为之而死，
甚至没有宗教的一席之地，
想象大家在和平中活着、生存着...
你会说我在做梦，
不过我却不是唯一的梦者，
我期望有一日有你的同行，
那就是天下大同日了。
想象没有私有制的一天，
如果你能做到，我唯有惊叹，
不见了贪婪与饥饿，
人间唯有兄弟情谊。
想象这个世界被全人类共同分享...
你会说我在做梦，
不过我却不是唯一的梦者，
我期望有一日有你的同行，
那就是天下大同日了。
列侬移民美国之后被歌迷枪杀。
911事件发生后，美国公众重新唤醒了对这首歌的热情。美国的公众媒体一方面充斥着《星条旗永不落》和《美丽的美国》这类"鼓动战争"的歌曲，另一方面，电台和电视台也接到了无数民众请求播放《想象》的电话，一时间这首歌在美国各地的流行及摇滚乐电台里到处可以听到。在纽约时代广场上方还竖起了一块广告牌，是由洋子花钱买下来的，上书:IMAGINE ALL THE PEOPLE/LIVING LIFE IN PEACE。想象所有的人都生活在和平当中）



（这句话是达尔文在物种起源说的 他用来千次这样的措词来形容人体的器官：我们可以如此想象、假如是这样，那么它将会得出怎样怎样的结果；其实是人体结构非常精密，达尔问很难用自然选择来解释。150多年了，进化论仍没能解决这个难题。眼晴是一种具有光学结构的器官，远比照相机复杂。视网膜还像高速计算机; 据估计，在将影像传送至大脑前就进行了每秒100亿次计算。经过大脑处理合并后才产生一个正立的立体图像。 译注）