美版知乎：中国经常说自己有5000年的历史，依据是什么呢

Suggesting China often notes it has 5,000 years of history. On what basis? Is this an internationally agreed claim and could the same be said of other places on Earth?

中国经常说自己有5000年的历史。依据是什么？这是国际上一致同意的说法吗？地球上的其他国家也可以这样说吗？

 

以下是美国Quora读者的评论：

Judith Meyer, Reading Chinese novels and visited China

Because the Chinese identify more with their early history than other places do. For example, French students learn about "the Romans", not "the French nation in 50 BC". Already the naming shows that we consider them a people apart, a people that gave us interesting ideas for sure but not a natural part of our own nation states. For China, the history of "our people" really goes back thousands of years.

One of the unifying bands is the written Chinese language. It has changed less than European languages have. Plus the Chinese language is littered with phrases and expressions that were coined hundreds of years before Christ was born.

There is also more awareness. Every Chinese child can recite by heart and understand poems that are 1400 years old (try that with Shakespeare, and he's much more recent).

因为中国人比其他地方更认同自己的早期历史。例如，法国学生学习的是“罗马人”，而不是“公元前50年的法国”。这个名字已经表明，我们认为他们是跟我们不同的民族，这个民族肯定给了我们有趣的想法，但并不是我们民族国家的一分子。对于中国来说，“中国人民”的历史可以追溯到几千年前。

其中一个统一的因素是书面汉语。它的变化比欧洲语言少。此外，汉语中充斥着基督诞生前数百年创造的短语和表达方式。

人们的认知也更深刻。每一个中国孩子都能背诵1400年前的诗歌，理解诗歌的含义(试试莎士比亚吧，他的年代要近得多)。

The final reason is that Chinese politicians play it up as a matter of national pride. For example, when China was recently criticized in the foreign news, a Chinese leader said "Whilst monkeys cry incessantly from bank to bank, I have already sailed past a myriad of mountains". This is not just a put-down of the foreign criticism and a declaration that China is already much more advanced, it's also two lines from a Tang dynasty poem that every Chinese person knows (早发白帝城, "Early start from Baidi" by poet Li Bai) - a not-too-subtle hint that China had world class poetry while Europe was overrun by barbarians.

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最后一个原因是，中国把本国悠久的历史当作事关民族自豪感的问题来渲染。例如，当中国最近被外国批评时，中国人说：“两岸猿声啼不住，轻舟已过万重山。”这不仅是对外国批评的一种羞辱，更是对中国更加先进的一种宣示，更是一首唐诗中的两行诗句，每个中国人都知道（李白的《早发白帝城》），是一个不太低调的提醒，中国有世界级的诗歌，而欧洲当时正被野蛮人征服。

我目前正在研究一种学习汉语的新方。感谢您的支持。

 

Matthew A Biltz

Yes, we all have history. But the claim is actually about "culture" not "history." If we go back 5,000 years no one was speaking English. In Europe they were speaking a proto-indo european language that originated in Turkey. The timing of this language migration is still debated but we can be sure that no modern european languages and writing system existed then.

New evidence from carbon dated millet show that the Chinese were farming 8,000 years ago. Cliff carvings in China using over 8,000 Chinese characters have been dated to 6,000 to 5,000 BCE, which would make actually their culture 8,000 to 7,000 years old.

In other parts of the world cultures arose, died out, or evolved into something extremely different. Chinese culture has remained very close to its origin.

是的，我们都有历史。但这个说法实际上是基于“文化”而非“历史”，如果我们追溯到5000年前，没有人会说英语。在欧洲，他们说的是起源于土耳其的原始印欧语系语言。这种语言迁移的时间仍存争议，但我们可以肯定，当时尚未出现现代欧洲语言和书写系统。

来自碳年代测定的谷子的新证据表明，中国人在8000年前就开始耕种了。中国的摩崖石刻使用了8000多个汉字，其历史可以追溯到公元前6000年至5000年，这使得中华文化有了8000年至7000年的历史。

在世界的其他地方，文化产生、消亡或演变成了截然不同的东西。但中国文化至今仍和它的起源十分相近。

 

Dan Volkman, studied China, studied abroad in China, obsessed with China.

Everywhere there is history. You are right to say that almost every place has a 5000 year history, but for China it has been almost constant. The Chinese have been relatively in the same place for 5000 years. They have grown from the same culture for quite awhile as well. They excelled much throughout their history, inventing things hundreds of years before the Europeans even thought of it.

Although explaining every single piece of Chinese history would take years, to put is efficiently: they have survived until this point in time through failures of government, colonialism, and even genocide. They invented gun powder, fireworks, paper (and paper armor, might I add), and knew America existed before Columbus decided to set sail and wipe out thousands of Native Americans for gold.

Portions of Chinese philosophy and philosophical interpretations still exist today through Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and the intermixing of different cultures. And if that isn't enough, there are over 50 plus other ethnic Chinese cultures that exist in China that vary so much amongst each other.

历史无处不在。你说得对，几乎每个地方都有5000年的历史，但对中国来说，几乎是亘古不变的。中国人在同一片土地生活了5000年。他们也从同一文化中成长了很长一段时间。他们在整个历史上都非常出色，他们发明了不少东西，比欧洲人早了几百年。

要解释中国历史的各个时期需要数年的时间，简而言之：他们通过历朝的失败、殖义，一直存续至今。他们发明了火药、烟火、纸张（还有纸盔甲），在哥伦布决定起航并消灭成千上万的美洲原住民以霸取黄金之前，他们就知道美洲大陆的存在了。

通过佛教，道教，儒学和不同文化的融合，部分中国哲学和哲学解读仍然存在于今天。如果这还不够震撼的话，中国还有超过50种其他的民族文化，它们之间的差异也是迥异的。

For example, The Chinese found in Nei Mongol are actually originally from Mongolia, and still live in the grassland areas (albeit with some electricity). The Miao people are the only Chinese ethnic group allowed to use and carry guns in China.

The problem I have with this question and with you is that you are phrasing it as a way to insult the Chinese. You are basically asking, "How dare the Chinese brag about 5000 years of history, when other people have histories just as better as they do, if not entirely better."

So let me take back what I said in the beginning. You are not right about the 5000 year history. Considering evidence has gone all the way back to 7000 BC of China's historical existence, I would say it is rather a 9000 year history (OVER 9000!!!!!!!!).

例如。在内蒙古发现的中国人实际上来自蒙古，仍然生活在草原地区。苗族是中国唯一允许使用和携带枪支的民族。

我对这个问题和对你的疑问是，你试图用这个说法来侮辱中国人。你基本上就差没直接问：“中国人怎么敢吹嘘自己拥有5000年的历史，别国的历史就算没有比他们更出色，也并不差。”

所以让我收回我一开始说的话。你说的5000年历史的说法并不对。鉴于考古发现证明中国历史可以追溯到公元前7000年，我想说中国拥有相当于9000年的历史（超过9000年！！！！！）。

 

Jason Szeftel, Land Use | Geography | Demography | Institutions | China

The geographic region of the world known as China has been settled for much longer than 5000 years. It has not been “China” for 5000 years.

Based on modern archaeology its possible to say a small part of modern China was a ‘proto-China’ about 3200 to 3500 years ago.

This is not the ‘China’ you have been searching for.

5000 years of history is a loaded, primarily political phrase.

From a scientific point of view 5000 years would mean China is claiming continuity with all the settled human populations living in China up until the present day. But that is not what China claims.

The Chinese government wants to project an image of linear continuity over 5000 years. This continuity is imagined as “Yellow River Civilization” spreading out from the Yellow River Basin throughout the rest of China. 5000 years means more or less a shared heritage with the Longshan culture (~3000BC) up through descendent cultures to the present day.

地球上被称为中国的地理区域已经有人类定居了5000多年。而不是中国已经存在5000年了。

根据现代考古学，可以说现代中国的一小段时间在3200到3500年前还是“原始中国”。

这不是你一直在寻找的“中国”。

5000年的历史是一个有诱导性的短语。

从科学的角度来看，5000年意味着直到今天，中国声称与所有定居在中国的人口保持了稳定的连续性。

中国希望塑造一个5000年来绵延不断的形象。这种连续性被认为是“黄河文明”从黄河流域蔓延到中国其他地区的过程。5000年多多少少也意味着龙山文化（约公元前3000年）一直延续到今天的共同文化遗产。

Instead there were multiple cultures in China. Here are just a few examples. Late 20th century attempts to link them in with the Longshan through ‘interaction zones’ and a number of other methods all failed. There is no single ‘main line’ Chinese culture that goes back 5000 uninterrupted years.

Nonetheless the Chinese government still claims 5,000 years and largely continues to maintain the single narrative line.

But it doesn’t do this because it cares about the Longshan culture. That was only first discovered in the 1920’s. Instead the Chinese government cares about protecting the old Chinese history of China.

As a phrase “5000 Years of History” is more or less new packaging for the same story that has been told since for at least 2100 years.

It signifies a serious unwillingness on the part of the gove-ent to take a long, hard look at the facts of Chinese history.

The phrase “5000 Years of History” helps:

相反，中国有多种文化。我给大家举几个例子。20世纪末，试图通过“相互影响”和其他一些方法将它们与龙山联系起来的尝试都失败了。没有一条中国文化的“主线”可以不间断地追溯到5000年前。

尽管如此，中国仍宣称自己拥有5000年的历史，并在很大程度上继续保持这种表述口径。

但它并不是因为在意龙山文化而这么做。龙山文化是20世纪20年代才首次发现的，相反，中国关心的是保护中国的古老历史。

“5000年的历史”这个说法，或多或少是旧瓶装新酒，已经讲述了至少2100年。

这意味着中国不愿意长期、认真地审视中国历史的事实。

“5000年的历史”一词有助于：

1. Protect the old mythic history of China that goes back (in time) between 4,000 and 5,000 years
2. Create a directed program of historical investigation intended to certify the old mythic history as much as possible
3. Maintain narrative continuity and limit impact of other distributed cultures on Chinese national identity
4. Prevent regionalism associated with excess appreciation of or identification with the non-”mainline” Chinese cultures
5. Serve the nationalist origin story of the last hundred or so years
6. Attach a sense of farsightedness and wisdom to the Chinese government (and people) for being so continuous and long lasting.

To sum up, the phrase “5000 Years of History” feels empty and is hard to nail down because it is a token phrase that takes the place of a real attempt to piece together China’s history.

1.保护中国4000年至5000年的古老神话历史

2.创建一个有指导性的历史调查计划，以尽可能多地证明古老的神话历史

3.保持记叙的连续性，降低其他分散的文化对中国民族认同感的影响

4. 预防与过度欣赏或认同非“主线”中国文化相关联的地方主义

5.为近百年来的民族主义起源故事服务

6.给中国人民一种远见和智慧的光辉形象，因为它是如此的持久绵长。

综上所述，“五千年的历史”这句话让人感到空洞，很难下定论，因为它是一个象征性的说法，而非真正的中国历史的拼合。

 

Collin Spears, Lived in China for 2.5 years in two different provinces.

No it is not internationally agreed upon by most scholars of prehistory because there is actually little evidence.

Chinese make a “leap of faith” in believing written records, which read more like Greek and Roman Mythology than historical facts.

There is very little direct evidence of a Xia or even a Shang Dynasty, and what we know about them was written during the Zhou Dynasty, centuries later.

不，国际上大多数史前学者并没有就此达成一致，因为考古证据并不多。

中国人相信文字记录是一种“信仰的飞跃”，它读起来更像希腊和罗马神话，而不是历史事实。

关于夏、商的直接证据很少，我们所知道的是几个世纪后的周代。

 

Eric Ruck, 30 years on the leading edge of tech, without falling off the cliff

You might be confusing history with the past. History is a written record of what happens in the past. It's generally accepted that the best source is recorded by the people who were there, but of course any artifacts or recordings of history have their own bias, are often incomplete, and very subject to interpretation.

Having a generally accepted account of the past is no small matter. You don't have to go too far back in Dead White Guy (i.e. Western) history to see this. Read "The Lodger Shakespeare". It's fascinating how so little history exists on the best known author humankind has ever produced, and the heroic efforts it takes to recover it.

So, sure, here where I'm sitting in Maryland, I'm sure something was going on 5000 years ago. But I'm sure no one knows what. Wildlife? Native Americans? Aliens? There's no record. But a lot of such records exist for China, which is an impressive feat of and tribute to their civilization

你可能把历史和过去混淆了。历史是对过去发生的事情的书面记录。人们普遍认为，最好的资料来源是由在场的人记录下来的，但当然，任何文物或历史记录都有自己的偏见，往往是不完整的，而且很容易被解读。

对过去拥有普遍接受的记录不是一件小事。你不需要在《死白人》(如《西部世界》)的历史中追溯很久就能看到这一点。阅读《房客莎士比亚》。对于人类历史上最著名的作家来说，历史是如此之苍白，而恢复历史却需要付出巨大的努力，这真是令人着迷。

所以，当然，我现在坐在马里兰州，我肯定5000年前确实发生了什么事。但我肯定没人知道。野生动物？美洲原住民？外星人？没有记录。但是中国有很多这样的记录，这是对他们文明的一个令人印象深刻的壮举和致敬。

 

Christian Kober, Having lived in China for 17 years

Firstly it depends on how you define history and civilization. China had a (reasonably) unified written language for a far longer period than any other civilization. Secondly there has been a feeling of 'being Chinese' for far longer than a feeling of being 'European" or "Western' has existed.

On the other hand, one can argue that the Bible, on which almost all western culture is based, can be traced to similar times. And, though Chinese kids might be able to quote 1400 years old poetry, most 'Westerners' can quote biblical verses which are at least as old (but - and this is an important difference, in translation). And the Egyptians, to whom we trace much of our achievements, were able to erect buildings of a scale which China could not at the time.

首先，这取决于你如何定义历史和文明。中国有一个（合理地）统一的书面语言，比任何其他文明都要悠久得多。其次，“生为中国人”的感觉比“欧洲人”或“西方人”的感觉存在的时间要长得多。

另一方面，人们可以说，几乎所有西方文化都以《圣经》为基础，它可以追溯到差不多的时代。而且，尽管中国的孩子可能会朗诵1400年前的诗歌，但大多数“西方人”可以引用至少和《圣经》一样古老的诗句（但这是翻译中的一个重要区别）。我们可以追溯到埃及人的成就，他们能够建造中国当时无法实现的大规模建筑。

Yet these are not the key issues. In China in schools it is consistently taught that such an old history & civilization is a value in itself. In the West it is often taught that civilizations and empires reach a pinnacle and from there on become corrupted, making change a positive thing (Gibbon: "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire", Paul Kennedy: "The Rise and Fall of Great Powers"). This partially reflects the Chinese wish for 'stability' compared to the Western dictum that everything is changing.

What is better or worse is nice to argue and impossible to decide. What obviously often grates is the inherent assumption that non-Chinese civilization do not have an old history (they certainly do have) and that being old implies being superior.

然而，这些并不是关键问题。在中国的学校里，人们一直认为这样一个古老的历史和文明本身就是一种价值。在西方，人们常常被教导说，文明和帝国达到顶峰，开始崩溃，使变革成为一件积极的事情（吉本：“罗马帝国的兴衰”，保罗肯尼迪：“大国的兴衰”）。这在一定程度上反映了中国人对“稳定”的愿望，而西方则认为一切都在变化。

孰好孰坏是不错的争议，无法定论。显然，经常令人恼火的是一个固有的假设，即中华民族文明以外的文明没有古老的历史（他们当然有），古老意味着优越。