中国是有优越感、孤立和妄想的国家吗？ 下 [美国媒体]

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An article in an Australian newspaper says that "sixteenth-century European explorers found a condescending, insular and delusional China, dismissive of foreigners and foreign technology, content to revel in the glories of its long past."

一篇澳大利亚报纸上的文章说，“十六世纪欧洲探险家发现中国是高傲的，孤立的，患有妄想症的，他们轻视外国人和外国技术，满足于其过去的辉煌。”

Does this still apply to China today?

这还是适用于今天的中国吗？

原文地址：

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[–]billium28 3 指标 23 天前
What do you mean by this? Im not knowledgeable with China for the most part but curious.

你说的是啥意思？我对中国不是很了解，但是很好奇

[–]laowailaoshistyleUnited States 4 指标 23 天前
I mean that I think I see things exactly the way u/onchonchpalawonch described them. Globalization means the free flow of trade, capital, people, labor, etc., which includes technology and information, but China, IMO, can not continue with its particular social system if information is allowed to flow more freely.

This is one area where I don't see much sophistication in Chinese methods compared to the West, such as the USA, who create endless streams and channels of rubbish information to give people the illusion of freedom, within a limited context of true political freedom amongst a populace who tends to be a bit isolated, insular, and arrogant. All the Chinese sophistication is in controlling and restricting the information, not spinning it, which the Americans do so amazingly well.

It appears to me China has been "closing the doors", ie. restricting foreigners, visas, etc., more and more, really since the 2008 Olympics—I think—but definitely since 2010'ish.

我的意思是，我觉得我看到的东西，就是你/ onchonchpalawonch描述的。全球化意味着贸易、资本、人员、劳动等自由流通，其中包括技术和信息，但中国，在我看来，如果允许信息自由流动，就无法继续其特定的社会系统。

我认为在这个领域上与西方相比而言中国的方式并没有那么复杂，如美国，它创造了无限的垃圾信息和流通渠道去给人的自由的幻想。在有限的范围内真正的政治自由，其群众往往是孤立的，狭隘的，傲慢的。所有的中国精英都是在控制和限制信息，而不是传播它，而美国人在传播垃圾信息方面做的非常好。

好像中国正在“关闭国门”，比如限制外国人，签证等等，越来越多，我认为这个情况是从2008年开始的，但真正开始的时间是自2010年。

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[–]onchonchpalawonch 11 指标 23 天前*
Opening China doesn't mean adopting democracy, it doesn't mean that the CCP will collapse. 
But China can't expect the world to accept flows of Chinese culture so long it doesn't accept flows of other cultures.
This is partly why China has zero soft power despite its economic power, Chinese culture has no appeal to the non-Chinese.

中国的开放并不意味着接受民主，也不意味着中共的倒落。
只要中国不接受其他文化，那么中国就不要期望世界接受中国文化。
这就是中国除了经济力量以外没什么软实力的部分原因，中国文化对非华人没什么吸引力。

No non-Chinese can feel truly interested in an ethnocentric, xenophobic culture that tells these outsiders how inferior they are compared to the Chinese.
One dynasty back then, were so much into their cultural superiority bullshit that they had the balls to ask European powers to pay them huge taxes in exchange for the honor of interacting with Chinese culture and Chinese people.

非华人没人真正对于这个民族主义的仇外的文化有兴趣，它强调外国人比中国人低等。
上个王朝，人们觉得他们的文明如此高等，以至于他们竟然让欧洲列强付高额的税款，以交换能跟中国文化和中国交流的殊荣。

No need to say that no country in Europe paid any tax to them, they can keep their Chinese culture for themselves.
If China wants soft power, it will have to educate its population appropriately and make it so Chinese culture considers every people as equals, not the rest of the world VS Chinese.

不用说欧洲没有国家给他们交税了，他们就自己留着中国文化吧。
如果中国想要软实力，她必须适当的教育她的民众，这样中国文化可以认为每个人都是平等的，而不是把世界其余地方同中国对立起来。

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[–]laowailaoshistyleUnited States 4 指标 23 天前
Educate its population correctly? Good one.

正确教育本国人民？很好。

[–]Individual99991 4 指标 23 天前
This is partly why China has zero soft power despite its economic power, Chinese culture has no appeal to the non-Chinese. No non-Chinese can feel truly interested in an ethnocentric, xenophobic culture that tells these outsiders how inferior they are compared to the Chinese.
It's a sad fact that the Chinese government only understands power and not softness.

I think you're right to an extent, but I think the larger problem is government control of the media, and the way it regards art as a vector for propaganda (or at least reinforcing the status quo) rather than something to be produced for its own sake. State censorship combines with purely mercantile studios to result in a mainstream media that is, on the whole, utterly without merit. Even moreso in the era of Uncle Xi's pound-shop Maoism, with his directives for artists to study the fucking countryside.
Any good or even remotely challenging mainstream films produced in China (eg. A Touch of Sin, No Man's Land) happen through fluke or chance, and still encounter big problems with distribution once made. Which is why mainstream Chinese cinema is 30 percent wacky rom-coms about attractive young women working in fashion in Shanghai, 20 percent "heroically fighting/enduring the Japanese occupation of WWII", 30 percent generic wuxia flicks, and 20 percent The Fucking Monkey King.

这也部分解释了为什么尽管中国经济实力上升但国家软实力却毫无作为的问题，外国人无法理解中国文化。外国人不会对种族优越主义感兴趣，排外文化告诉外来者他们和中国人相比是多么的低劣。
令人悲哀的是中国政府仅仅知道强硬却不懂柔性。

我认为在某种程度上来说你是对的，但是我认为更大的问题是政府对媒体的控制，他把艺术视为宣传工具（或者至少用来强化现状）而没有让艺术自由发展。国家审查制度完全与完全商业的工作室合作从而产生了毫无价值的主流媒体。在今天，他们甚至要求艺术家去研究那没用的农村。
中国任何优秀的甚至令人深思的主流电影（如天注定，无主之地）都是产生于偶然和侥幸之间，即使拍成，也依然面临发行上的大问题。这正是为什么主流的中国电影30%是怪诞的浪漫喜剧，这些电影讲的是在上海的迷人年轻女性从事时尚工作的事。20%是关于二战时期的抗日战争。30%是一般的武侠片。剩下的20%是tm的西游记。

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[–]TheMediumPanda 27 指标 23 天前
The way they treat Taiwan, Vietnam, The Philippines and others seem quite condescending to me.

他们对待台湾、越南、菲律宾以及其他国家的方式在我看来很傲慢。

[–]renminballer 6 指标 23 天前
Mercantilist economic policy and a crazy firewall are global to you? Are you a time traveler from 16th Century Korea?

重商主义者的经济政策以及疯狂的防火墙对你来说就是全球化？你是从16世纪的朝鲜过来的时空穿梭者？

[–]downvotesyndromekidUnited Kingdom 32 指标 23 天前
"Condescending" is a weird term to use
"Hello"
"Wow your Chinese soooo lihai!"
Eating
"Omg you can use chopsticks!"
Nope definitely can't understand that whole condescending thing.

 “傲慢”这词用起来就很古怪。
“你好”
“哇哦，你的中文说得真好”
吃饭
“我的天。你可以用筷子啊！”
所以傲慢这个词不太合适 

[–]im_an_actual_dogUnited States 35 指标 23 天前*
Well, in Western culture it feels kind of condescending, but in China it's just them being nice and finding an excuse to talk to foreigners. I don't think there's any negative intent.
Edit: Actually, I'm kind of surprised so many people in this thread were complimented on being able to use chopsticks. I was never complimented on that. Everybody kind of assumed that I could use them.

嗯，在西方文化中这会让人觉得有些高傲，但是在中国仅仅就是友善以及一个能与老外交谈的借口罢了。我不认为这里面有啥消极的意图。
编辑：事实上，我有点惊讶于在这上面竟有如此多的人受到称赞，就因为他们能使用筷子。我从来没因此受到赞赏过。每个人或多或少都认为我本该就会用筷子。

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[–]gqul 10 指标 23 天前
Yeah I think it's just culture shock really. Chinese people are pretty patronizing towards each other, but within Chinese culture that kind of empty flattery is considered courteous, not condescending.

是的，我认为这仅仅就是文化冲击罢了。中国人互相之间都很自命不凡，但是在中国文化中些许空洞的奉承被视为礼貌而非傲慢。

[–]Individual99991 2 指标 22 天前
Actually, I'm kind of surprised so many people in this thread were complimented on being able to use chopsticks. I was never complimented on that. Everybody kind of assumed that I could use them.
Definitely happened to me.
I think you're right that it's mostly people trying to be welcoming and finding a mutual point of interest/ability as an icebreaker. However, there definitely is a slew of awful TV shows in which audiences are encouraged to marvel or laugh (depending on the level of ability) at foreigners who are trying some traditional Chinese pursuit.

The unstated message of these shows is that Chinese culture is too complex and ancient for a foreigner to understand, and any foreigner who shows a reasonable level of ability is some kind of prodigy (regardless of how few fat, middle-aged Chinese businessmen would be capable of adequately performing kunqu/kung fu/tai chi/calligraphy/painting etc).
I've also been told to my face on more than one occasion that Chinese culture is too ancient and complex for Westerners to understand.
I'm not saying that this is what is meant by everyone who complements a foreigner on their skills at something mundane, but it's definitely an undercurrent in some areas of society.

事实上，我有点惊讶于在这上面竟有如此多的人受到称赞，就因为他们能使用筷子。我从来没因此受到赞赏过。每个人或多或少都认为我本该就会用筷子。
的确在我身上发生过。
我认为就大多数人试图变得受欢迎，而寻找某种共同的兴趣/能力来破除交际坚冰这一点，你是对的。但是也有许多恶俗的电视节目，在这些电视节目里，观众被怂恿认为老外很古怪或者对其加以嘲笑，而这些老外又正在尝试某些传统的中国工作。

这些节目展现的不成文的信息是中国文化太复杂古老了，老外很难去理解。那些拥有适当能力的外国人就是天才（无论多瘦，到了中年期的中国商人完全能够表演昆曲/功夫.太极.书法.绘画等等）
我也被多次当面告知中国文化太古老太复杂了，外国人很难理解。
并不是说每一个赞扬外国人的人都是持这种态度，但是在社会的某些方面，这确实是不争的事实。

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[–]onchonchpalawonch 8 指标 23 天前
LOL, when I point out their fork and knife skills they look at me like I just insulted them. But we should be honoured when they point out our chopstick skills. Double standards much.

哈哈，当我指出他们的刀叉技巧时，他们看着我，好像我刚刚侮辱了他们似的。但是当他们指出我们的筷子技巧时我们就得感到荣幸。这真是双重标准。

[–]enemyofreality666Australia 8 指标 23 天前
I used to gain a smug sense of satisfaction from pointing out that they were holding their knife and fork incorrectly.

以前指出他们拿刀叉的方式不对时，我确实感到了飘飘然的满意之感。

[–]yep45United States 2 指标 23 天前
It's like when in the west Asian Americans are asked where they are "from". The intention is not malicious - people presume (not unfairly) that many Asians or their parents are recent immigrants, and they are showing an interest in that.

这就好比西部的亚裔美国人被询问来自哪里一样。并没有恶意，因为他们认为很多亚洲人或者他们的父母是移民，所以对于这一点很感兴趣。

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[–]onchonchpalawonch 15 指标 23 天前
The feeling is just like how people clap at a monkey when it does some dumb trick.
Lived in Japan 10 years, not a single time I have been complimented on my chopstick skills, people there take it for granted that anyone with half of a brain can use chopsticks.
Comes to China, everyday someone to tell me, "wow you can use chopsticks?! so clever!!!".

In the same category, "wow you can use left hand!", "wow you can take the bus on your own!", "wow you can shop by yourself!", "wow you can order food!", "wow you can drive a car!", and so on.
Not condescending at all. I miss being treated as an equal by local people, really.

就好比人们给作出了愚蠢把戏的猴子鼓掌一样。
在日本住了10年，从未有人夸我筷子用的好，那里的人觉得傻子也会用筷子，所以是理所应当的。
去了中国，每天都有人说“哇你会用筷子？真聪明！”

就像是，“哇你会用左手！”，“哇你一个人能坐公交车！”，“哇你一个人会买东西！”，“哇你会点菜！”，“哇你会开车！”，诸如此类。
真是一点优越感都没有。我很想念被当你人平等对待的日子，真的。