[战区]这是台湾与美国$1.3B军火协议中能得到的 [美国媒体]

Here's What Taiwan Would Get In $1.3B Arms Deal With U.S.

这是台湾与美国$1.3B军火协议中能得到的



The United States has approved more than a billion dollars in potential arms sales to Taiwan, a move that has already drawn unsurprising criticism the People’s Republic of China. However, there is no clear indication when these deliveries, which the Taiwanese military sorely needs to maintain a credible deterrent, might actually occur and some fear the U.S. government might choose to use them as a bargaining chip with their counterparts in Beijing.

美国最近批准了未来对台超过10亿美元的军售，当然毫无意外的招来了中华人民共和国的批评。尽管台湾方面急切的需要这批军售来维持有效的遏制能力，但现在还没有确切的证据表明军售最终成为现实，一些人更是担心军售只是美国政府用来跟北京方面讨价还价的筹码。

On June 29, 2017, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA), the Pentagon’s top arms broker, announced that the U.S. State Department has cleared seven separate arms deals, totaling more than $1.3 billion, for what it referred to as the “Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office (TECRO) in the United States.” This entity represents the Republic of China government on the island of Taiwan, which the U.S. government does not technically recognize, but which it reserves the right to sell weapons to under the Taiwan Relations Act, also known as Public Law 96-8.

2017年6月29日，五角大楼的顶级军火机构——国防安全合作局宣布美国国防部（DSCA）与“台北经济文化代表处”（TECRO）达成了7项不同的军火交易，总价值超过13亿美元。TECRO代表了台湾岛上的中华民国，尽管美国政府与其没有正式的外交关系，但是按照与台湾关系法，也就是我们所熟知的公共关系法96-8，美国仍保留对台湾出售武器的权利。

Each individual DSCA notice said both that “this proposed sale is consistent with United States law and policy as expressed in Public Law 96-8” and that “the proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.” The latter statement is canned language that the Pentagon office includes in almost all of its arms sales announcements. These are the first sales to Taiwan the U.S. government has approved under President Donald Trump. DSCA last announced proposed arms deliveries to Taiwan in 2015, which, at the time, were the first such deals in more than four years.

每项交易的DSCA公告中都提到了“计划中的军售遵守美国公共关系法96-8中法律和政策”以及“计划中军售中的武器装备和技术支持将不会改变地区军事平衡”。后者是五角大楼大多数军售声明的惯用语。此次对台军售在特朗普政府执政期间尚属首次。DSCA上次宣布对台军售是在2015年，当时距离前一次军售超过了4年。

The “provision of defensive systems … increases Taiwan’s confidence and ability to maintain the status quo of peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait,” Taiwan’s President Tsai Ing-wen said through her official Twitter account. “We will continue to seek constructive dialogue with Beijing, and promote positive developments in cross-strait relations.”

台湾领导人蔡英文在她的官方推特账号上这么说，“防御条约的条款增强了台湾维持台湾海峡两岸和平与稳定的信心和能力”，“我们将继续寻求与北京方面的建设性对话，积极促进两岸关系的健康发展”。



Two of Taiwan's four Kee Lung-class destroyers.

台湾四艘基伦级驱逐舰中的两艘

The “defensive” weapons are all clearly focused on improving Taiwan’s parity to forces on the mainland, which have been rapidly modernizing in recent years. The single largest item is $400 million to maintain and upgrade the Taiwanese military’s Surveillance Radar Program (SRP). The integrated systems are “a key component to the recipient's Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance architecture,” according to DSCA. “[Taiwan] will use the requested updates and sustainment as a defensive deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen its homeland defense.”

“防御性”武器很明显主要着眼于提高台湾方面对抗大陆的能力，近几年来大陆方面实力飞速增长。其中最大的一项交易为4亿美元，用于维护和升级台湾军方的监听雷达系统。DSCA透露说，这套整合系统是“接收指挥，控制，通讯，电脑，信息监控和探测信号装置的关键部分”；台湾“将得到需要的升级和维护用以应对地区威胁，加强本土防御”。

Then there’s another $80 million to upgrade the AN/SLQ-32(V)3 Electronic Warfare Systems aboard the Taiwanese Navy’s four Kee Lung-class destroyers. These ships, laid down in 1978, had formerly served in the U.S. Navy as the Kidd-class, an advanced derivative of the Spruance-class. The 1970s vintage “slick-32” has a radar warning component to alert the crew they are being targeted, as well as a jamming capability to defend against enemy systems. It can also take in signals from friendly radars, providing a passive targeting capability itself. The DSCA notice does not explain what specific changes Taiwan wants to make to its systems.

另外一项交易是8000万美元，用以升级台湾海军四艘基伦级驱逐舰上的AN/SLQ-32(V)3电子战系统。这四艘舰服役于1978年，之前为美海军基德级驱逐舰（基德级为斯普鲁恩斯级衍生型号）。上世纪70年代的老旧“slik-32”拥有雷达照射告警组件和干扰敌方系统的能力。它还能接受友方雷达信号为自己提供被动瞄准的能力。DSCA公告中并没有详细说明台湾需要哪些改进。

The other five deals are for missiles and torpedoes and associated components, spare parts, and other support services. Two separate packages contain 50 AGM-88B High-speed Anti-Radiation Missiles (HARM) and 56 AGM-154C Joint Stand-Off Weapons (JSOW). Both of these would be important armament options for the Taiwanese Air Force’s fleet of F-16 Viper fighter jets. In particular, the JSOW could give them a desperately needed stand-off capability against Chinese forces, including those still on the mainland. The Taiwan Strait is barely more than 100 miles wide at some points. When released from a high altitude, the AGM-154C can reach a maximum range of 70 miles. The weapon also has a two-stage penetrating warhead that can break through some hardened targets. JSOW is especially useful for going after an enemy's key air defense nodes and command and control hubs.

另外5项交易分别为导弹，鱼雷，配件，备用零件和其他的技术支持。其中两项分别为50枚AGM-88B型高速反辐射导弹（HARM）和56枚AGM-154C型联合远程武器（JSOW），两者会成为台湾空军F-16毒蛇战机的重要装备，尤其是JSOW杰索能赋予台湾急需的对抗中国力量的能力；杰索还拥有双段钻地弹头用以对付坚固目标，特别是在针对敌人的关键防空节点和指挥控制中心时有奇效。

Another missile delivery would include 16 Standard Missile 2 (SM-2) Block IIIA surface-to-air missiles, plus additional components either as spares or potentially to upgrade older versions of the weapons that Taiwan already has in inventory. The country’s Kee Lungs are armed with SM-2s. Manufacturer Raytheon says the Block IIIA variant is capable of intercepting subsonic and supersonic aircraft and cruise missiles at high and low altitudes. However, this type of standard missile does not have any anti-ballistic missile capability however, nor would its ships have the radar or other systems necessary to prosecute an intercept. Given the ranges involves, integrated air defenses on land and sea would be essential to holding off a Chinese invasion, especially given that the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has the potential to simply overwhelm Taiwan’s own air arm.

另外一项导弹交易为16枚标准2（SM-2）Block IIIA 型舰空导弹和额外的配件，这些配件不仅仅用作备用零件，也可以用来升级台湾现存的老旧型号导弹。台湾的基伦级驱逐舰装备有标准2导弹。制造商雷神公司透露Block IIIA 型有能力在低空和高空拦截超音速和亚音速的导弹以及飞行器。不过此型标准导弹不具备任何拦截弹道导弹的能力，基伦级驱逐舰也缺乏相应的雷达和其他必需的系统来支持拦截。考虑到导弹的射程，要阻止中国的入侵就必需整合陆地和海上的防空系统，因为解放军空军很快就会拥有对台湾空军的压倒性优势。



Lastly there are two potential batches of torpedoes and associated upgrade parts. One possible deal has 46 Mk 48 Mod 6AT heavyweight types. The other has enough components for Taiwan to upgrade 168 older Mk 46 Mod 5 lightweight torpedoes into the more advanced Mk 54 configuration. The Mk 48s would be for the Taiwanese Navy’s pair of Dutch-built Hai Lung-class diesel electric submarines. The “Advanced Technology” Mod 6 versions combine a modified, quieter-running version of an earlier propulsion system with a new guidance and control unit. The United States has already sold these types to Brazil and Turkey for their diesel electric submarine fleets. The lightweight Mk 54s, primarily an anti-submarine weapon, would arm Taiwanese surface ships and maritime patrol aircraft. Taken together, these would be Taiwan’s first lines of defense against China’s underwater fleet, which includes dozens of boats, includes both nuclear-powered and advanced diesel-electric types.

最后两项为鱼雷和升级用的配件：46枚Mk 48 Mod 6AT重型鱼雷和将台湾168枚老旧Mk 46 Mod 5轻型鱼雷升级为具备先进的MK 54型配置的所需配件。MK 48型用以装备台湾海军两艘荷兰产海伦级柴电潜艇。“先进的”Mod 6型拥有较旧型更为安静的改进型推力系统，增加了一个新的导航控制单元；美国曾经向巴西和土耳其出售这一型号。轻型的MK 54型，主要用作反潜武器，装备台湾的水面舰艇和海事巡逻飞行器；它们将是台湾防御中国水下舰队（拥有多艘先进柴电潜艇和核潜艇）的第一防线。



One of Taiwan's Hai Lung-class submarines.

台湾海伦级潜艇

These weapons would be significant and important additions to Taiwan’s inventory given both the aging state of much of its own equipment and military modernization on the other side of the Taiwan Strait. In recent years, the various branches of the People’s Liberation Army have been working hard to obtain aircraft carriers, advanced surface warships and submarines, stealth multi-role jets and improved air-to-air weapons, a host of new intelligence and surveillance aircraft and drones, a wide array of ballistic and cruise missiles, much more.
A day before the Pentagon announced the potential arms packages for the Taiwanese military, the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) launched its first Type 055 destroyer, which will be the most advanced surface combatant the country has ever put into service. All of this seems geared to help the country expand its military prowess well beyond its borders into contested areas such as the South China Sea and the East Sea, which would only serve to further isolate Taiwanese authorities from their allies in an actual conflict.
By comparison Taiwan’s military often appears accident prone and is in desperate need of upgrades across the board. But the island’s complicated diplomatic position has often stalled U.S. arms deals in spite of the Taiwan Relations Act and broad support for the policy in Congress.

考虑到台湾不断老化的武器以及对岸不停升级的军事实力，这些武器对台湾来说具有极其重要的意义和作用。近年来，解放军不断努力拥有航空母舰，先进的水面舰艇和潜艇，隐身多功能战机和先进的空空武器，新型信息监听飞行器和无人机集群，一系列的弹道导弹和巡航导弹等等。就在五角大楼宣布对台军售的前一天，解放军海军下水了第一艘055型驱逐舰，这是中国下水的迄今为止最为先进的水面战舰。所有这些都会使中国的军事存在从其边境扩展到诸如东海，南海的争议地区，通过冲突进一步将台湾和它的盟友分割开来。相对应的，台湾的军事力量事故频发，急需整体升级。但是，尽管有与台湾关系法，尽管台湾在国会中有广泛的支持，台湾复杂的国际关系经常让美国对台军售陷入停滞。



Taiwanese F-16A and B fighter jets.

Notably, after years of attempting to convince various U.S. presidential administrations to let it buy new, advanced F-16 fighter jets, Taiwanese officials finally compromised and agreed to instead purchase an upgrade package for its older F-16A/B Vipers. Similarly, there has been much talk of, but little movement on adding new submarines to the fleet, which still operates two World War II-era ex-Tench-class boats in a training capacity. On that front, in addition to DSCA’s announcements, the Senate Armed Services Committee did include a provision to aid Taiwan in developing new subs in its proposed annual defense spending bill. The most immediate problem has historically been that no American shipyard currently makes diesel electric submarines and the United States isn’t interested in selling Taiwan nuclear-powered submarines.

值得注意的是，在经历数年试图说服美国历任政府出售新型改进型F16战机的失败后，台湾官方最终妥协，同意购买F-16A/B毒蛇战机的升级组件。类似的，台湾试图从美国购买新型潜艇的努力也没有什么收获，如今台湾仅有两艘二战时代的前丁鲷级潜艇用作训练艇。在此方面，除了DSCA的公告外，参议员军事委员会确实在年度国防开支预案中通过了旨在帮助台湾发展新型潜艇的提案。问题是现在美国造船厂已经不再生产柴电潜艇，而美国无意向台湾出售核潜艇。



President Tsai Ing-wen aboard one of Taiwan's Hai Lung-class submarines in March 2017.

2017年5月蔡英文登上台湾海伦级潜艇

However, after meeting with Chinese premier Xi Jinping at his Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida four months later, Trump appeared to adopt a conciliatory tone one the issue, backing down from any obvious support for Taiwan in any status. “I think he's [Xi] doing an amazing job as a leader, and I wouldn't want to do anything that comes in the way of that,” Trump told Reuters in an interview after the meeting. “So, I would certainly want to speak to him first.”
After hearing of DSCA’s announcements, Chinese officials specifically cited the “Mar-a-Lago summit” in their objections to the planned arms sales. It is worth nothing that the China always complains about any such arrangements on principle, as it does not recognize the authority of the government on Taiwan to make such deals or otherwise engage in foreign affairs.

DSCA2017年6月宣布的军售案在奥巴马时期就已提出，但是奥巴马政府一直拖延直到特朗普和他的团队到来。特朗普曾指责奥巴马试图放弃整个计划，现在同样有人担心军售仍有被放弃的危险。2017年1月时任候任总统的特朗普曾与台湾领导人蔡英文通过电话，此举不仅打破了候任总统的惯例，也损害了美国政府同北京的关系。蔡英文所在的民进党积极推动被看做是将台湾带向实质台独路线的政策，而非像过去那样声称对中国大陆拥有统治权。北京政府则始终坚持认为台湾是其游离在外的一个省份，在回应蔡英文的声明时将其标记为“独立极端主义分子”。然而4个月后，与中国主席XI在佛罗里达州海湖庄园进行会晤后，特朗普在台湾问题上采用了更为柔和的语气，并且在任何情况下都不再表现出对台湾的明显支持。峰会后特朗普在路透社的采访中表示“XI是一个超棒的领袖，我不想再用那种方式做事。以后，我会首先同他对话”。DSCA发表公告后，中国官方在表达对军售案的反对时还着重提到了“海湖峰会”。中国总是原则上抱怨任何对台军售，这毫不奇怪，中国始终认为在外事方面台湾政府没有做出这种交易或安排的权力。

But with the Trump administration talking tough on North Korea and repeatedly stressing the importance of China in getting the reclusive regime to abandon its nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs, there has been speculation that he might offer to scrap or slow-roll the arms deals to secure their support. Separately, the Trump administration appeared to effectively halt so-called “Freedom of Navigation” patrols, or FONOPs, near Chinese-occupied islands in the contested South China Sea for months. In May 2017, the U.S. Navy destroyer USS Dewey performed the first such mission in more than six months, sailing near Mischief Reef in the Spratly Islands, challenging Chinese claims.

但是随着特朗普政府在与朝鲜的谈判进展困难，特朗普政府不断的强调中国在说服这个与世隔绝政权放弃核武器和弹道导弹计划上的重要性，有推测认为他很可能将这个废弃的或者说进展缓慢的军售案作为交换条件来确保北京方面的支持。特朗普政府已经基本上停止了南海中国岛礁附近的“自由航行”巡逻（FONOP）。2017年5月，美海军驱逐舰杜威号在中国美济礁附近执行了半年以来首次自由航行巡逻，挑战中国方面的主权声明。

Still, the Trump's relationship with the Chinese may be cooling again, as officials in Beijing have shown themselves unable or unwilling to control North Korean provocations. Late on June 29, 2017, his administration announced new sanctions against two Chinese citizens and two businesses in the country, the Dalian Global Unity Shipping Company and the Bank of Dandong. U.S. authorities specifically accused the financial institution of helping North Korea launder money.

尽管北京的官员声称他们不能或不愿控制北朝鲜的挑衅，特朗普与中国的关系还会再次缓和下来。2017年6月29日晚间，特朗普政府宣布对两名中国公民和两家中国公司（大连宇联船运公司和丹东银行）实施制裁。美国官方特别指控后者帮助北朝鲜进行洗钱活动。

In the meantime, Taiwanese officials will undoubtedly lobby their own supporters in Congress, which still has to approve the sales. Since Taiwan enjoys broad, bipartisan support among American lawmakers, it seems unlikely there will be any problems on that front. Ultimately, Trump will have to decide how to proceed and that decision could be one of the clearest indications yet of his administration’s actual stance on Taiwan.

与此同时，台湾官方肯定会游说国会中倾向于完成军售的支持者。由于台湾在国会两党中拥有广泛的支持者，军售案的通过看起来没有什么问题。最终特朗普将不得不决定怎样推动此事，这将会是特朗普政府在台湾方向立场的最明显标志。


Quattro Bajeena
The USA does not manufacture diesel electric submarines. But South Korea and Japan do. Taiwan does not even need AIP to defend against China, given the distances involved, what the USA needs to do is smooth any issues Taiwan may have in getting these. In case China leans on the submarine or component manufacturers.
Also while the upgrades and munitions deals are long overdue there need to be weapon sales as well. Like latest generation F-16s, similar to the ones just sold to Poland. China has no reason to complain. Not when they are inducting advanced Su-27 clones and stealth fighters like the J-20. They are the ones changing the balance of power in the region.Over the next decade the USA should also sell the Taiwanese F-35 stealth fighters and ABM missiles. Not right now, it will ruffle too many feathers, also there are cheaper upgrades which can be done. Like radars and surface-to-ship and surface-to-air missiles.Taiwan is, like someone said, an unsinkable aircraft carrier right off the coast of China. China challenged the balance of power in the region. So it needs to be re-equalized.

美国确实不生产柴电潜艇，但是韩国日本生产啊。考虑到台湾海峡的宽度，台湾都不需要AIP潜艇来防御中国，美国只需要解决台湾购买潜艇遇到的问题就可以了，防止中国对付潜艇或配件生产商。升级和军火交易已经晚了很长时间了，必须要卖武器给台湾了，例如最近卖给波兰的最新型F -16战机。中国没有理由抱怨，尤其是当他们在不停生产Su-27克隆型和J-20隐身战机的时候。他们才是改变地区力量平衡的国家。10年后，美国应该向台湾出售F-35隐身战机和ABM导弹；现在不能卖，会造成太多变动，帮台湾升级武器更便宜也共容易实现，例如升级雷达，反舰导弹，舰空导弹等等。就像某些人说的那样，台湾就是中国海岸边上一座不沉的航空母舰。中国挑战地区力量平衡，所以需要重新平衡中国。

hunter32031LeaderQuattro Bajeena3d
The problem is China has such large trading ties with other countries that no country other than the US is willing to sell arms to Taiwan.  That's an unfortunate reality.
Taiwan needs to look at Sweden and Israel for examples of how to defend themselves against an overwhelming foe.  Sweden has long operated their tactical aircraft from relatively short sections of roads.  Both countries had/have nearly universal conscription and could deploy formidable forces in the case of actual war.、

问题是中国跟其他国家拥有巨大的贸易往来，除了美国没有哪个国家会卖军火给台湾，这是一个不幸的现实。
台湾应该看看以色列和瑞典的例子，看看他们是如何对抗具有压倒性优势的敌人的；瑞典经常演练从公路上起飞战术飞机，两个国家都实行义务兵役制，一旦战争来临迅速拥有令人畏惧的力量。

JS DreyerLeaderhunter320312d
Taiwan is technological and rich enough that they could be building their own weapons, and spending a much larger % of GDP on defense.   Given their position and threats against them, it should be at least 3%.

台湾有技术实力，也有钱，他们应该自己制造武器，应该花比1%GDP多的多钱在防御上。考虑到台湾的位置和他们面临的威胁，我觉得占GDP的比率至少要提高到3%

hunter32031LeaderJS Dreyer2d
It's a good point.  They did actually build their own fighter when we weren't willing to sell them F-16s.  I don't know how much more of their own equipment they may make.  Israel has done very well in that regard but then they've also benefitted from large US contributions and effective espionage as well.
On the political side, there's a real divide in how to respond to the Chinese threat.  That's sabotaged many of their rearmament programs over the years.

说的好，原来我们不卖F-16给台湾的时候他们确实生产了自己的战机。不知道他们装备了多少自己的武器。以色列做的非常棒，但是以色列也从美国得到了许多优秀武器。
政治方面，在如何应对中国威胁的问题上，台湾社会分歧很大，这阻碍了他们改良军备的计划。

Superdave1Leader4dEdited
Slick-32 may have been thought of in the 70s, but was not on many until the late 80s to early 90s. It also does a few other things then let you know your targeted depending on the vessel. Joe you are better then plagiarizing wiki.

Slick-32可能会被认为是70年代的老货，但是直到80年代后期90年代初期也没装备多少。它还有一些其他的功能，得到目标信息，这主要取决于装备的什么舰艇上。作者君，你不应该只是抄袭维基百科。

Tom ClarkLeader3d
Add another brick to the "Taiwan declares independence" pile. China says that the treaty guaranteeing 50 years of internal autonomy to Hong Kong "has no relevance" and is not binding on them.  So any agreement with China isn't worth the paper it's written on - and the Taiwanese are smart enough to know that so goes Hong Kong, so goes Taiwan.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/30/china-says-legally-binding-hong-kong-handover-treaty-britain/
China says legally binding Hong Kong handover treaty with Britain has 'no practical significance'
China appeared to dramatically consign Britain's responsibility to Hong Kong to history on Friday by...

为“台湾宣布独立”增砖添瓦。中国说基本法保证的香港自治的50年“没有关联”，对他们没有约束力。跟中国的协议废纸都不如，台湾人应该明白现在的香港就是明天的台湾。
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/30/china-says-legally-binding-hong-kong-handover-treaty-britain/
中国说交还香港所依据的中英联合声明没有“特殊意义”

Colt WrightLeader3d
this should be used as a bargaining block to get China to take out or play neutral the hermit kingdom

这个应该作为中国不支持朝鲜或者保持中立的条件

Matt LunaLeader4d
If the Chinese wanted to take Taiwan, there wouldnt be a dam thing anyone could do to stop them at this point, short of threatening nuclear war.  The Chinese are not stupid, they know that eventually they will unify with Taiwan and it will be a huge boon for there economy.  Better to wait 30-50 years and get a robust economy then invade and destroy it all.

如果中国想要收回台湾，没有任何人或势力能够在不使用核武器威胁的情况下阻止。中国人不傻，他们知道最后一定会统一台湾，对他们经济是一个巨大的促进。最好等个30,50年，等经济更强大再入侵，毁掉一切。

Tom ClarkLeaderMatt Luna4dEdited
The problem is, the longer they wait, the more the population thinks of themselves as "Taiwanese" rather than a bunch of Chinese exiles.  The current president of Taiwan was elected by people who consider themselves Taiwanese first, and not Chinese. Heck, in a few years all the surviving Nationalists who were part of the evacuation will be gone, and only their descendants will be left.  The Kuo-min Tang party still holds to eventual reunification, but the population of "native" Taiwanese (descendants of the island's original inhabitants) feel that they were discriminated against by the Kuo-min Tang when it was a military dictatorship, so they don't particularly care for the Kuo-min Tang or their policies.

问题是他们等的时间越长，就会有越多的人认为自己是“台湾人”而不是中国流亡者。蔡英文当选，就说明了现在他们兽先认为台湾人，而不是中国人。用不了几年，那些从大陆撤过来的国家主义者就会消失，只剩下他们的后代。国民党仍然坚持最后的统一，但是“本土”的台湾人（岛上土着居民后代）认为自己在军事独裁时期被国民党歧视了，所以他们根本不关心国民党和它的政策。

When you look at it that way, the clock is ticking on a peaceful reunification. When the last surviving member of Chiang Kai-shek's generation is dead, what rights does China have over Taiwan that it doesn't have over Vietnam, or the Philipines?
(Edit) And another thing - the Taiwanese have been observing how China treats Hong Kong, and it's becoming obvious that the promise of "One country, two systems" - the preservation of Hong Kong's liberal democratic institutions under Chinese sovereignty - was a lie. From restricting elections to only candidates who have Beijing's stamp of approval to the apparent kidnapping of Hong Kong publishers by Chinese authorities, it's apparent that any similar agreement between Taiwan and China will also be a lie.

所以从这个角度看，没有多少和平统一的机会了。当老蒋那代人都领了盒饭，中国对台湾还有什么主权，就像对越南菲律宾那样。另外，台湾人看到了中国怎么对香港的，很明显现在来看一国两制就是谎言。从限制唯一一个倾向于中国绑架了香港出版商的候选人进行选举来说，中国对台湾的类似协议看起来也像个谎言

Matt LunaLeaderTom Clark4d
Correct me if im wrong, but I was under the impression for the previous few hundred years atleast Taiwan was part of China (before the nationalists lost).
My gut tells me that China will continue to liberalize, and at some point there wont be much difference in the systems on the mainland vs Taiwan.
Chinese/Taiwanese politics is not my forty obviously.. :)

如果错了请纠正，在我的印象里在以前的至少几百年里，台湾都是中国的一部分（在国家主义者消失以前）。我敢肯定中国肯定会继续解放台湾，在某一时刻台湾中国的区别会消失。中国/台湾政治不会出现在我四十岁的时候....

Paul IrvingLeaderMatt Luna3dEdited
China focussed inward so it was Chinese territory but was useless and ignored. 1895 the Japanese took it as war spoils from a war with China and ran it as their first colony until 1945 when they were told to give it up by the US. It went back to being ignored until the KMT forces retreated to there and set up shop in 1949. They were just as much invaders as the japanese were (though, presumably, less brutal).

中国关注国内，所以台湾曾经是中国的领土，但是没用。1895年日本通过战争攫取台湾作为其第一块殖民地，一直到1945年被美方说服放弃。其后一直被忽视，直到1949年国民党从大陆撤退到台湾，建立政权。他们跟日本人一样都是入侵者（尽管可能比不上日本人残忍）

Tom ClarkLeaderPaul Irving3d
"Less brutal than the Japanese" is a pretty damn low bar....

“比不是日本人残忍”，这个标准真TM低

pacman107Tom Clark3d
japan was as cruel as the germans they conducted  a lot of human experiments. i read where they would drop bubonic plague,tuberculosis,smallpox,anthrax out of airplanes on the chinese people like crop dusting,just to see how many would get what. they would inject people with syphilis, mad cow disease and moniter them to see what effects it had on different people. the lucky ones in these areas were the ones that were exposed to anthrax death was quick.they would force people to stay in the cold until they would get frostbite  that would turn into gangrene so they could study necrosis. imo they should have been tried for warcrimes and crimes against humanity .they tortured and killed and raped. chinese women were used as sex slaves i dont know how that was over looked. their atrocities were just as bad as the nazi just not as publisized

日本跟德国一样残忍，进行很多人体实验。我读过相关内容，他们用飞机向中国人喷洒鼠疫，肺结核，天花，炭疽，就像飞机对庄稼喷农药那样，仅仅是为了得到杀伤力数据。他们想人们注射梅毒和疯牛病，观察在不同人身上的效果。里面最幸运的就是那些快速死于炭疽的人们。他们强迫人们站在冰天雪地里直到得了冻疮，冻疮最终会变成坏死，如此他们就可以研究死疽。他们应该为所犯的战争罪和反人类最得到审判；他们折磨，强奸，杀人。中国妇女被迫成为慰安妇，不明白为啥慰安妇问题会被忽视。他们的罪行跟纳粹一样恶劣，却不像纳粹那样为公众所知。