中国在南海的“万里长沙”：历史在重演？ [美国媒体]

-------------译者：babybaober-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------



For many outside observers, the Great Wall of China is a symbol of ancient China's strength, military might and power. The Xi Jinping Administration is currently undertaking land reclamation in the South China Sea, which has been dubbed by some as the 'great wall of sand'. Could the Great Wall of the past shed light on the current wall of sand?

对于中国之外的观察员来说，长城是古代中国国家力量和军事力量的象征。而习大大正在南海所谓“万里长沙”版的开疆拓土，是过去的万里长城在当下的照进现实么？

When the Great Wall was first built, and until the 20th Century when it was adopted as a national symbol by Sun Yat-sen, most Chinese perceived it as a sign of despotism, political failure and suffering due to a loss of national 'greatness'. It was European settlers in China who crafted the notion of a 'Great Wall of China' – an invention consequently adopted by Chinese rulers in the 20th Century as a nation building tool.

从长城开始建立到20世纪孙逸仙将其作为国家的象征这段时间，大多人中国人认为长城是国力衰弱后专制、政治失败和承受战痛被迫防御的产物。20世纪初的中国欧洲殖民者创造了长城所谓“中国伟大的城墙”一词，而当时的中国统治者（孙中山）则吸收采纳了这一词汇作为国家精神的象征来促进国家建设。

 -------------译者：babybaober-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------

One of the key narrative shells of Merriden Varrall's Chinese world views is the notion of history as destiny – China was once great and will be great again. Viewed in this light, the Great Wall is a symbol of China's former greatness. Ergo, the construction of a new wall — the wall of sand — is evidence that China has again become a leader in Asia and is a symbol of its emerging military power and might.

Merriden Varrall关于中国世界观一个最关键的描述是中国曾经辉煌过而且必将再次辉煌。基于这一点，长城是中国昔日辉煌的象征。因此，建立新的长城----万里长沙---则明显是中国成为亚洲领导者和军事大国再次雄起的象征。
（译者注：Merriden Varrall，目前就职洛伊国际政策研究所,任东亚研究项目主管，曾经就职于中国外交学院)。

The Great Wall, as we know it, started to emerge under the Qin Dynasty (221-206 BC). Building this wall was seen as the ultimate solution to minimizing the threat of invasion from the nomads. Its construction followed failed attempts at diplomacy and economic inducements. Construction eventually proved to be a costly solution to what could have been likely solved with other methods of diplomacy (such as trade). As the eminent Sinologist Pierre Ryckmans observed in his 1996 Boyer Lectures, once a civilization "feels a defensive need to surround itself with walls in order to keep the outsider world at bay its very survival becomes problematic."

长城始建于秦朝（公元前221~206年），其原因是在外交和经济诱导的尝试失败后，为了抵御游牧民族的贪婪侵略威胁而建。但是相比其它的解决方式，比方说贸易等，这种方式（建造长城）明显昂贵了很多，正如着名汉学家皮埃尔.里克曼在1996年鲍伊论坛中指出“当一个文明感觉收到威胁而感觉需要建设围墙来封闭自己隔离外部世界的时候，他本身的生存则成了问题”。


-------------译者：babybaober-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------

Wong K Ming Wa
Just a 2 hour age >>(the Baltic Sea) Here's why the Navy didn't shoot down the Russian fighter jets (Su-24s) that buzzed by a US destroyer
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...

仅在2小时前在波罗的海，这就是为什么美国海军驱逐舰无视俄罗斯苏-24喷气式飞机俯冲挑衅的原因。http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...

A Chinese
Those Russians are good, they flied so low, nearly at the wave high, no defense system can deal with that, the American is goner if it is a real battle.

这帮俄罗斯家伙好样的，他们飞的这么低，都快可以亲吻海浪了，以至于没有任何防御系统可以干掉他，如果是在实战中，美国人可以去见上帝了。

WHOHE
Lol. Uh-huh. So good that the crew of the ship just so happened to be its with camera waiting for the Su-24's to buzz by. They saw them coming from a long way and sinnce they are not at war with each other the Captain of the Cook did not react. That is called being a professional.

哈哈哈，船上的这帮家伙好像就是专门拿着相机等着苏-24俯冲好拍个牛掰的照片。他们大概觉得他们不远万里来相会，又不在战争之中，所以“库克船长”也没什么直接的反应。这才叫专业。

（版主你确定你没转错评论吗，这tmd哪跟哪啊?虽然我也很赞赏大毛子，但是兔子不敢啊）

-------------译者：babybaober-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------

A Chinese
The American should do the same even in real battle, not reacting and be professional.

估计在实战中美国佬也会如此毫无反应，也会如此专业。

Just here to comment
A nice comparison. The Great Wall of China had a good purpose for its construction and was defensive in nature given that they wanted to repel the nomads from the north. China today doesn't need another Great Wall given that their size and power (economically and militarily) is bigger than that of the entire South China Sea claimants combined. The Great Wall of Sand is more of a weapon than a shield and given the tensions in the SCS (coast guards, oil rigs, land reclamation, etc) we should know who's on the defensive. If anything China is the northern invader (just look at a map).

一个鲜明的对照，为了抵御北方游牧民族的侵扰，在古代建造万里长城是再自然不过的事情了。但是今天的中国经济和军事实力远大于整个南海申索国的全部，所以根本就不需要另外一个长城了。与其说万里长沙是防御设施倒不如说是件武器了，即通过海警、石油钻井平台，造陆等活动来制造紧张氛围。我们应当知道谁才是防守者，谁才是北方的侵略者者（看看地图就知道了）

-------------译者：z8975623-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------

counter attack
just look up at google and see how many parts of the world R reclamations
most of Diego Garcia R reclamations too but it do not belongs to UK or US
not talk about Dubai and Neitherland and of course large part of US too
Parts of New Orleans (which is partially built on land that was once swamp)
Much of the urbanized area adjacent to San Francisco Bay, including most of San Francisco's waterfront and Financial District, the Port of Oakland, and large portions of the city of Alameda has been reclaimed from the bay.
The Northwestern University Lakefill, part of the campus of Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois
Back Bay, Boston, Massachusetts
Battery Park City, Manhattan
Liberty State Park, Jersey City

去谷歌查查世界上到底有多少土地是人们开垦出来的。
迪戈加西亚岛的大部分面积也都是开垦出来的，但它们的确不属于美国或英国
更不用说迪拜和荷兰，还有当然了，美国的一大部分领土。
新奥尔良的部分面积（一部分建立在陆地上，但是曾经沉下海里）
大部分靠近旧金山海湾的城区，包括大部分旧金山沿岸金融区，奥克兰港，还有阿拉米达城区的一大部分都是从这个海湾开垦出来的。
西北大学的填湖，西北大学埃文斯顿，伊利诺斯州校区的部分面积
麻省波士顿的后湾区
曼哈顿的巴特利公园城
泽西市的自由女神像公园

-------------译者：cpcchina-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------

TDog
A nice attempt at an analogy, but the Great Wall of Sand was a moniker invented by American analysts and observers, not the Chinese. If anything, the various reclaimed features in the South China Sea are less of a wall insofar as walls actually decrease one's strategic depth. Think of the Maginot Line - France relied so heavily upon it that once it was negated, their plans fell apart.
China's features in the SCS are less about securing boundaries than gaining space, a small but important difference. Also, I would argue that the military nature of these features has been grossly over-inflated. An airstrip and a handful of missile batteries and suddenly the Pentagon gets its proverbial knickers in a twist... yet the massive airbases and tens of thousands of men in American bases are no threat to anyone.
The comparison between the Great Wall and China's current activities in the SCS falls short if only because it relies upon the old if not especially difficult tactic of redefining the elements within the debate to forge an inevitable conclusion.

这个比喻值得鼓励，但是万里长沙只是美国分析员与观察员想出来的一个绰号，可不是中国人发明的。硬要说的话，在中国南海的这些填海造陆并不像墙，因为墙事实上减少了战略纵深。想想马奇诺防线吧——法国一直极为依赖这条防线，一旦它失去作用，他们的计划就全部失效了。
中国在中国南海的填海造陆用意并非是守卫边境安全，而是获得空间，这个差别十分微妙但是很重要。另外，我必须要说这些陆地的军事性已经被过分估计了。一个飞机跑道和几个导弹发射架就让五角大楼沮丧了……而美国自己则全世界建基地都没关系。
把万里长城和中国在南海的填海造陆作对比是站不住脚的，因为它用的是那种老旧的并不十分困难的重新定义辩论中的要素的伎俩，从而得出一个不可避免的结论。

-------------译者：cpcchina-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------

Wong K Ming Wa
(360p) 《直播港澳台》20160415
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Taishanese
Well, China wasn't defined by the Great Wall and it certainly isn't going to be defined by the Wall of Sand.
China's rise will come about by continuing to open up to the world and integrating with the global economy. Which she is doing. And she will joined the developed world and continue to add value to the developing world. Chinese ports already ship more containers to the rest of the world than any other nation. Soon, Chinese air passengers will fly to more places in the world than any other nation and Chinese cumulative investments will exceed that of any other nation. China isn't keeping anyone in or out.
This Wall of Sand is but a tiny wafer thin sliver of all that is China, not a definition of it.

嗯，中国可不是被长城所定义的，也不会被万里长沙所定义。
中国由向世界开放并融入全球经济走向崛起。这正是她当下在做的事情。她将加入发达国家，并继续向发展中国家输出价值。中国的港口向全球输送的集装箱比世界上任何一个国家都多。不久之后，中国的航空乘客就会比世上任何国家的乘客都去更多的地方，中国的累计投资会超过任何国家。中国无意把别人踢出去或者拉进来。
万里长沙只不过是中国这个庞然巨物身上的小小一块，绝不是它的全部。

-------------译者：cpcchina-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------

Beehoody
The Great Wall of China wasn't a single wall, it was multiple walls that directed and taxed trade goods and movement of peoples. It was never designed as a system to repel an invading army, it's purpose was to divide the armies and populations that were already in China and direct bulk goods using canals. It's failing was mainly due to the canal system reducing the power of the generals, who rebelled.

中国的万里长城可不仅仅是一堵墙，它是导向人口流动方向与征收交易税的很多很多堵墙。它并非是用来驱逐入侵者的系统，它的目的在于将中国已存的人口与军队分开，并且用运河引导那些笨重的货物。它的失败之处主要在于运河系统削弱了那些将军手中的权力，导致他们起兵反叛。

ting_m_1999
The territory of China had extended beyond the Great Wall as a result of other trying to break through the Great Wall. Will similar case happen when others try to break the Great Sand Wall.

中国的疆域早就超过万里长城了，得益于那些试图翻越万里长城的侵略者。同样的事情也会发生在那些想要翻越万里长沙的人头上。

Thomas Fung
Given the focus on small islands and the dominance of the Army in China's security politics, one has to wonder if the PLAN realizes that naval warfare concerns water, not land.

考虑到中国对这些小岛的关注以及陆军在中国安全政治中的主导权，你就该想想中国海军是否意识到了海战在水上，而不是陆上。

-------------译者：z8975623-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------

A Chinese
Your ignorance is glaring, without far away land bases to provide supports, all ships are rusty buckets only good for coastal duties. If you are correct American naval bases in Japan, the Philippines, India, etc. are fool's game?

你的无知真感人，没有遥远的陆地的供给，所有的船只都不过是一些只能对沿岸海域起作用的废铜烂铁。如果你是对的，那么美国在日本、菲律宾、印度等等国家的海军基地，全都是愚人的游戏？

pro veritate
Correction, authors, the Mongols established the Yuan dynasty, the first foreign dynasty in China. The Jurchens of Manchuria were the second group to breach the Great Wall and established the second foreign dynasty in China, the Qing dynasty.
I have often wondered why the those in charge in Beijing chose not to bid their time, as advised by the wise Deng Xiaoping, and use a much more powerful mean such as trade to achieve China's ambitions. They started the Maritime Silk Road initiative after they've already begun to flex their muscles in the SCS, thereby, ensuring that the initiative won't have a chance to succeed. Had they wait and establish a complete economic hegemony over Asia, they would have gotten what they want without much protests from their neighbors and any reactions from the US would seem to be unjustified. The way that things are turning out, the US, now has a very good excuse to confront China at the behest of its neighbors. Clumsy.

请改正，作者，蒙古人建立的是元朝，中国历史上首个外族朝代。满洲的女真人则是第二个越过长城建立第二个外族朝代清朝的人。
我经常在想，为什么北京领导人不像聪明的邓小平所建议的那样等待时机并使用更加强大的方式比如贸易来实现中国的雄心壮志。他们在南海耀武扬威之后才提出了海上丝绸之路计划，所以导致他们的这个计划将无法获得成功。而如果他们能耐住性子并在亚洲建立一个完全的经济霸权，那么他们就可以轻易得到他们想要的，而且不会有邻居抗议，并且所有美国的回应都会显得不恰当。而在目前的事态下，美国在中国邻国的要求下有了绝佳的借口来对抗中国。真是迟钝。

-------------译者：z8975623-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------

A Chinese
Only delusional will deny history repeats itself, but the American is denying history will repeat on them by claiming exceptionalism; yet within few decades, the American Empire is repeating the same historical path walked by the Roman Empire, their citizens and their national behaviour are same as the dying days of the Roman citizens and the Empire.
During the dying days of Roman Empire, it was interfering internationally excessively beyond its national strength can support its ever expanding ambition, so is the USA today. During the dying days of Roman Empire, Roman citizens were more interested in the meaningless pro sport (gladiator) games than welfare of their fellow citizens, so is the USA today, Americans are more interested in pro sport games than the excessive Americans in jail, on food stamps and with no health care.

只有具有妄想症的人才会否定历史会重演，但美国人通过宣称例外主义来否定历史将会在他们身上重演；然而，未来几十年，美利坚帝国就是在重复着罗马帝国的历史老路，他们的公民以及国家的行为都和处于日薄西山的罗马帝国一样。
而在罗马帝国苟延残喘的时候，它还大举干涉国际，而且超过了其国家所能承受的其自身扩张野心的能力，这正如现在的美国。而在罗马帝国苟延残喘的时候，罗马公民更感兴趣的是职业运动游戏（比如斗兽场格斗士），而不关心自己同胞的福利，这也符合如今的美国，美国人现在更关注的是职业运动游戏，而不是监狱的人满为患、太多人领食品救济卷、没有医疗保险这些社会问题。

pro veritate
The only thing you're good at is using deflections to avoid the subject at hand.

你最擅长的事就是转移话题。

-------------译者：z8975623-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------

Ionosphere
You have everything backwards. The Roman Empire was aggressive and expansionist during its heyday. It became increasingly insular and withdrawn during its decline.

你说错了。罗马帝国在全盛时期十分具有侵略性及扩张性，而在衰落期则变得孤僻和沉默。

Susumu_Araki
"the Mongols overcame the wall, defeated the Ming dynasty and established the Qing dynasty "
Qing Dynasty was Manchu, not Mongol.
During Qing Dynasty, Manchu was the 1st ruling class, Mongol and Uyghur and Tibet were 2nd ruling class, Han Chinese and Korea were slaves for 300 years.

“蒙古人越过了长城，打败了明朝并且建立了清朝”
清朝是由满族人建立的，不是蒙古人。
清朝时期，满人是一等阶层，蒙古人和维吾尔族及西藏人是二等阶层，汉人和朝鲜人则做了300年奴隶。（作者是日本人，无怪乎其奇怪的历史观及朝鲜人会被扯进来）

Springfire
Slaves adopt to their masters languages (such as Japan adopting Kanji, African slaves adopt English). Manchu emperors adopted to Han Chinese language.
Your comment is bullshit.

（回LS）奴隶会去适应他们主人的语言（诸如日本人适应了日本化的汉字，非洲奴隶适应了英语）。而满族的统治者则采用了汉语。所以你的评论就是一坨屎。

-------------译者：z8975623-审核者：龙腾小少爷------------

Susumu_Araki
What was the hair style of Han Chinese during Qing Dynasty for 300 years?

（回LS）那汉人在清朝时期300年间留的辫子又怎么算？

A Chinese
Druing that time Japanese was uncivilized bandits and barbarians, a shorty one though. Even nowadays the Japanese is an unnormal one castrated by the White American.

（回LS）即便到了那期间，日本人还是未开化的土匪矮子野蛮人。甚至是现在，日本人也很"特殊"，一个被美国白人阉割的存在。

Susumu_Araki
"Qing dynasty – the first dynasty which was not ethnically Han Chinese"
Sui and Tang Dynasties were Turk.
Yuan Dynasty was Mongol.

“清朝 - 首个非汉人朝代”
隋朝和唐朝是突厥人建立的。
元朝则是蒙古人。

A Chinese
Japanese should not be forgetting their root, they are Chinese and Korean. The Tenno definitely is Korean

（回LS）日本人不应该忘了他们的祖先——中国人和朝鲜人。日本天皇毫无疑问是朝鲜人。