原始标题：为什么对于印度人来说1962年中印边境冲突刻骨铭心？ [美国媒体]

Why is it so important for Indians about 1962 Sino-Indian Conflict?

原始标题：为什么对于印度人来说1962年中印边境冲突刻骨铭心？



jjp1st
i continuously hear the "1962 war" from indian. as a chinese, it's really difficult to understand why it is so important to 5000 year old country india.
i look at wikipedia and find that that "war" last for 1 month, 80 thousand chinese army fight with 10 thousand indian army, with 1000 dead at indian side and 800 dead at chinese side.

作为一个中国人，我一直从印度那里听说关于1962年中印边境冲突的消息。但我很难理解，为什么这事对历史悠久的印度来说这么重要？

if we compare this "war" to korea war, korea war last for more than 3 years, 1.5 million chinese army along with millions of NK army, fighted with half a million american/UN army and million SK army, with 0.5 million dead china side, 200 thousand dead american side.
or, let's look at china-japanese war, with 30 million chinese dead in 8 years.

如果我们将这场“战争”与朝鲜战争进行比较，朝鲜战争持续3年以上，150万中国军队和数百万的朝鲜军队与50万美国/联合国军队和百万南朝鲜军队作战，50万中国军人牺牲，2万人美国大兵阵亡。或者让我们来看看中日本战争数据，在8年里3000万中国人直接或间接死于战争。

i respect india and indian, and have been there twice. but i dont understand their view on the tiny confliction of 1962. they published thousands of book about that "war", argued millions of post about it on internet. 60 years later, they are still stick on this tiny event. i really want to know the reason for indian to do that.

我尊重印度和印度人，也去过印度两次。但我不理解他们对1962年发生小冲突的看法。他们出版了数千本解读这场“战争”的书，在互联网上发表了数百万篇关于它的文章。60年后他们仍然坚持这么做。我真的很想知道印度人这么做的原因。

The Imperial
It has something to do with the post-war effects on India.

这与这场战争战后对印度的影响有关。

Lawnmowerman
Nothing unites a fractured counrty like a common enemy

没有什么能像一个共同的敌人那样将一个支离破碎的国家团结在一起。



Linschoten
Reason enough indeed; Krishna Menon certainly made a mess of this. He was an interesting character!

理由确实很充分，都怪克里希纳梅农，他搞砸了一切。他一定是个很有趣的人。

Jinit
In comparision to China, independent India faught 4 major wars with pakistan and one with china. So obviously every war is important for the India. However I can understand that as a chinese person you must have been surprised by the importnace given by the Indian people on the 1962 war. However there are certain reasons why it is still fresh in the Indian mind.

与中国相比，独立后的印度与巴基斯坦进行了四次大型战争，与中国打了一场。显然每一场战争对印度都很重要。然而我可以理解，作为一个中国人你一定对印度人民在1962年的战争中表现出来的东西感到惊讶。但在印度人心中这场战争依旧记忆犹新是有原因的。

Independent India treated China as good old neighbour, the two of whom are witnessing each others rise and fall for 5000 years. And the independent India tried to renovate the same age old relations with china. India was the first country who offically recognized PRC. Infact before 1962 there was one famous slogan in India - Hindi chini bhai bhai - (Indians and Chinese are brothers ) So obvioulsy when China attacked India, people felt like they have been back stabbed by the China, which created a bitter memory in their mind. And that memory towards the china is still fresh in their mind. And that is one of the main reason why it is given such an importance in India.

印度独立后把中国视作好邻居，5000年来两国一直见证互相着对方的兴衰。印度独立后试图修复与中国的关系。那时印度是第一个承认中华人民共和国的国家。实际上在1962年前还有个着名的口号——中印是好兄弟。所以当中国进攻印度时，印度人感觉自己被人背后捅了一刀，这在印度人心中留下了片痛苦的记忆。这也导致为什么印度人对这事记忆犹新。



PS: My parents recently visited China and People were very warm and friendly towards them as you said earlier. However Chinese goverment isn't that much friendly to India.
and welcome to the forum.

我的父母最近访问过中国，如你所述人们对他们非常热情友好。然而中国政府对印度就没那么友好。欢迎在论坛一起讨论。

rvsakhadeo
Reason enough indeed; Krishna Menon certainly made a mess of this. He was an interesting character!
He was arrogant and totally ignorant about the requirements of a modern army, which Indian Army was far from being one.
He constantly insulted and hectored the Army Chief Gen. Thimayya, a competent officer who having come from the old British- Indian Army had faced the Germans in the Egyptian desert and had enough foresight and ability plus the best of interests in heart as regards the improvement of the Indian Army.

他傲慢自大，完全不了解现代军队的操练要求，导致印度军队远达不到现代军队的标准。他不断地侮辱恐吓陆军总司令Gen. Thimayya，一名前英帝国驻埃及殖民军军官。一名远见卓识，视印度利益高于一切，注重不断提升印军实力的优秀军人。

Krishna Menon nominated Gen B.M. Kaul ( an officer, who was a relative of the Prime Minister Nehru and whose experience was essentially in the Army Supply Corps ) as the in-Charge of the Eastern Command and asked him to drive out the Chinese incursions as if these were simply some warts on the Indian territory. Kaul took one look at one of the forward posts and fell ill and was vacated to the Delhi hospital of the Army where he lay till almost the end. He did come back to the front, but had to be carried on the back of a soldier in order to inspect the Army. A farce and a bitter tragedy combined !

克里希纳梅农提名B.M. 考尔（一名拥有充足军队后勤供应经验的官员，总理尼赫鲁的亲戚）作为东部军区司令，要求他赶走中国入侵军队。考尔看了一下前线战报就病倒了，然后被空运到德里的后方军医院。整场战争他都躺在病床上。他确实回到过前线，但确是被士兵背到前线的。这场闹剧导致了一场痛苦的悲剧。

Linschoten
During his years in England, he played a central role in founding Pelican books, which has performed a valuable service ever since in making serious non-fiction books available to a wide audience at a cheap price; so something unequivocally good to remember him for there, even if many aspects of his political career were controversial.

他在英国的那些年里，在创办鹈鹕系列丛书中发挥了核心作用。自那以后鹈鹕图书就一直在以低廉的价格向广大读者销售。这是一项非常有价值的行动;因此即使他政治生涯许多方面都存在争议，也有一些东西可以让人记住他。



Hopefully China will democratize itself, and the people will get the power they deserve, and will behave in a manner that all democratic people do, i.e forgo designs of domination and agression against other people.
Dharma , Righteousness, should be the everyones goal. This has bound Chinese and Indian thinking through the last 3,000 years. Confucious, Buddha are equally respected in both nations.
We should keep this in mind

希望中国能民主化，人们能获得应得的权利并活得像一个民主人士一样。并放弃对他国的侵略和统治。
法，公义应该是所有人的追求。这使中国和印度在过去3000年里一直在思考。孔子和佛陀在这两个国家都同样受人尊敬。
我们对此应铭记于心。

fangqingming
what is indian opinion about nehru's Forward policy? just curious.
ps: china and india had became neighbors for many thousands years, almost always are in peace, 1962's war shouldn't became troble to each other.

印度对尼赫鲁的前进政策有什么看法？我只是好奇。中国和印度是几千年的邻居，过去几乎一直都保持着和平，1962年战争不应该影响两国关系。

jjp1st
it's good to be able to calmly discuss this event with indian. let me reply my understand of that "war".

能与印度人冷静地讨论这件事是件好事。让我来回答我对“战争”的理解。

firstly, it seems the difference is the tibet. here's the lix about tibet from wikipedia ([ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet]Tibet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]). tibet is part of china since yuan dynasty, which is arround 14th century. since then, tibet is considered by the empiror as a autonomy province.

首先，两国分歧支出似乎是西藏。这是维基百科关于西藏的介绍。西藏自公元14世纪的元朝起就是中国的一部分。从那时起西藏就被视作一个自治省。

in 18th century when china became weak before the western countries, china was split by the western countries: east china was english land, south-west china near vietname was french land, north-east china was japan land, xinjing/tibet was combat land for russian and british. actually, today, many chinese believe russian took 1/3 of chinese territory in 18 century.

18世纪后中国在西方国家显得软弱无力，导致中国被西方国家分裂：中国东部成了英国殖民地，中国西南地区成了法国殖民地，中国东北成了日本殖民地，新疆/西藏是俄罗斯和英国的战场。实际上今天还有许多中国人认为俄罗斯在18世纪占领了中国领土的三分之一。



fouthly, after i read comments on india times for 3 years, i start to understand part of the reason :

第四，在我看了三年印度时报后我开始理解部分原因了：

1, india government use china/pak to terrifiy the indian seperatist movement. i heard some indian said it was china who make india unified into one country. i also see many people say that india cannot compete with china if india divide into small countries.
2, india high castle people use china to terrify the low castle people. they are telling the low castle people that you dont revolt, else china will come and kill us all.
3, india accept whiteman as a extra castle to their tradition castle system. and the whiteman castle is the highest than all other indian castle.
for example, india don't mind american have millitory bases in india ocean. but they mind chinese navy ship go pass indian ocean.

印度政府用中国/巴基斯坦来恐吓印度的独立运动。我听,一些印度人说，是中国让印度统一成一个国家。我还看到许多人说，如果印度分裂成小国印度就无法与中国竞争。
印度高种姓人用中国来恐吓那些低种姓的人。他们告诉低种姓的人，如果你不反抗中国就会来杀死我们所有人。
印度接受白人作为他们传统种姓系统的额外种姓。而且白人是印度所有其他种姓中最高等级的种姓。例如，印度不介意美国在印度洋上建很多基地。但他们介意中国海军军舰经过印度洋。

The Imperial
The last post was highly inaccurate. Those are basically the classic stereotypes of India in China.

最后一句话非常不准确。这些都是典型的印度人在中国人心中的刻板印象

Jinit
it's funny when indian are proud of democracy, but frustrated with the elected corrupt government.
Yes we are frustrated with corrupt goverment, however the same democracy also gives us the power to bend the arms of the corrupt goverment if its not acting according to our wishes. besides Indian democracy is relatively young. so it will take some time to mature. and anyway corrupt goverment are alreay being kicked out from the offices, which is being evident by the recent elections in differant states. And as churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried"

是的我们对腐败的政府感到失望，然而同样的民主也给了我们权力。如果它不按照我们的意愿行事，我们就有能力让腐败的政府屈服。此外印度的民主制度还相对年轻。所以这需要一些时间让这套制度成熟起来。无论如何腐败的政府都被赶出了办公室，这一点在最近不同州的选举中表现很明显。就像丘吉尔说的那样“民主是最坏的政府形式，只不过要除掉所有其他已不断试验过的政府形式”

as a chinese, we are very practical. we see the result, then judge the process. if the result is bad, the process is bad too. so, it the elected government is bad, the election system is bad too.
but the indian seems only consider the process, not the result
At time many Indians (including me) thinks that Chinese goverment form is much better for India than the democracy esepcially when I see regional parties literlly handicaps the central goverment from taking important decisions for the country. However democracy is still better choice for India considering the fact the almost 1/5 th Indian population is made up of minority communities (Muslims, Shikhs, Christians and Parsis) whose right smight not have been protected by the one party goverment. Besides India isn't as homogenous as China. So for eg if it for the goverment like that of China, Hindi would have been enforced on the population as an national language in 1947 rathjer taking the opinion of people into consideration and as a result southern states might have been out of India by now. It would have been hard to hold the India togather with communist goverment.

许多印度人（包括我）都认为，中国的政府形式比民主制度更适合印度，因为我看到印度地方政党在国家做出重要决定时对中央政府的影响过于巨大。然而，对于印度来说民主仍然是一个更好的选择，因为印度几乎有1/5的人口由少数群体（穆斯林、什叶派教徒、基督教徒和帕西人）组成，他们的权利可能没有任何政党保护。此外，印度也不像中国那样同质化。因此对于像中国这样的强势政府来说，北印度语有可能早在1947年就作为一种全国通用语言被强制流通，但结果可能导致南方各邦脱离印度。要让印度与GC主义结合在一起很困难。

He was arrogant and totally ignorant about the requirements of a modern army, which Indian Army was far from being one.
He constantly insulted and hectored the Army Chief Gen. Thimayya, a competent officer who having come from the old British- Indian Army had faced the Germans in the Egyptian desert and had enough foresight and ability plus the best of interests in heart as regards the improvement of the Indian Army.
Krishna Menon nominated Gen B.M. Kaul ( an officer, who was a relative of the Prime Minister Nehru and whose experience was essentially in the Army Supply Corps ) as the in-Charge of the Eastern Command and asked him to drive out the Chinese incursions as if these were simply some warts on the Indian territory. Kaul took one look at one of the forward posts and fell ill and was vacated to the Delhi hospital of the Army where he lay till almost the end. He did come back to the front, but had to be carried on the back of a soldier in order to inspect the Army. A farce and a bitter tragedy combined !
I remember one particular story regarding the Kaul. There were some problems regarding the food rations given to the soldiers. They weren't enough to their requirement. Besides they were dropped from air and most of them never reached at the desired estination. So when the soldiers complained the Kaul about the rations, he told them that " Eat whatever you get or stay hungry"!!!

我记得有一个关于考尔的故事。当时印军在给士兵的口粮方面存在一些问题。士兵的要求不能被满足。除此之外，军粮被飞机空投下来但大多数粮食都没有被送到士兵手里。因此，当士兵们向考尔抱怨口粮短缺时，他告诉他们“要么吃任何你能吃的东西，要么饿着”！！



ravichaudhary
it's good to be able to calmly discuss this event with indian. let me reply my understand of that "war".
firstly, it seems the difference is the tibet. here's the lix about tibet from wikipedia (Tibet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). tibet is part of china since yuan dynasty, which is arround 14th century. since then, tibet is considered by the empiror as a autonomy province.
in 18th century when china became weak before the western countries, china was split by the western countries: east china was english land, south-west china near vietname was french land, north-east china was japan land, xinjing/tibet was combat land for russian and british. actually, today, many chinese believe russian took 1/3 of chinese territory in 18 century.
about tibet, you may argue its dependency, but you cannot deny that tibet has strong relationship with china central government for centuries.
here comes india. in 1950s, CIA lure dalai lama out of tibet. and india provide full support for dalai lama. it seems all indian keep blind on the fact that nehru's government support dalai lama who is trying to split tibet from china. from this moment, indian government is never considered as friend to china any more.
so, don't tell me indian government's friendship to china. china wont think a government is friendly if they support a person trying to split china.
By this logic, since India was also part of the British Empire, we should go back to being ruled by them

按照这个逻辑，既然印度也曾是大英帝国的一部分，我们应该回到被英国统治的境地

beeh
There are many reasons, most of them are not the official reasons given by the Indian government.

原因有很多，其中大部分都不是印度政府给出的官方理由。

First you have to understand that the freedom movement within India had taken on a high degree of interest in western concepts of civilized behavior. There was a notion within India that because the British (and Europeans in general) were professing to be the most civilized of all cultures and that this was the reason they were holding authority in nations not of their own, a question was being posed.

首先，你必须了解印度国内的自由主义运动导致印度人对西方定义下文明行为产生了浓厚兴趣。在印度有一种观念认为，因为英国人（以及欧洲人）声称自己是所有文化中最文明的国家，这也是他们在国家间拥有权威的原因。但这一点对与否还存疑。



The 62 war is for Indians something that is close to what the Europeans felt when napoleon declared himself emperor, a betrayal of a worldview. After the 62 war, the Indian government has been effective in silencing all who questioned their moral policies on the grounds of the 62 war and so every year the war takes on more importance for policy makers.

62年的战争对印度人来说很像欧洲人听说拿破仑称帝时感到受到背叛的感觉。62年战争之后，印度政府一直压制所有质疑他们道德政策的人。所以62年的战争对政策制定者来说越来越重要了。

Judging by you responses, from your view, China is only reclaiming territory. There are two points you should consider.

从你的观点来看，在你角度来说中国只是在收复失地。你应该考虑两点：

1. People live on the territory you are claiming, if India was to follow the reasoning of why historic territory belongs to modern states, all of south east Asia, sri lanka, nepal, pakistan, afganistan, large parts of iran and tajikstan plus parts of turkey would belong by right to India. This is completely absurd and what China is attempting seems to be equally absurd. The chinese government is declaring war against the people of the territories they wish to occupy, hiding behind circular logic doesn't change this. Holding states through force alone will always fail, the chinese government appeals to your morals by claiming historic theft. Has it occurred to you that the people who you claim are thieves become stateless. Short of killing them, or driving them into other territories, you are keeping them prisoners. Do you agree with this?

很多人生活在你宣称拥有主权的土地上，如果印度也遵循现代国家可以继承历史领土归属的原则。那么整个东南亚，斯里兰卡，尼泊尔，巴基斯坦，阿富汗，伊朗和塔吉克斯坦大部以及土耳其大部地区都该属于印度。这非常荒谬，中国政府的做法似乎同样荒谬。中国政府对他们想要占领领土上的人宣战，依旧遵循前现代国家的领土观念。仅仅通过武力来控制领土的国家总会失败，中国政府通过宣称拥有历史上领土的盗窃做法符合你的道德吗？你是否意识到，那些被你声称是小偷的人变成了无国籍的人。除了杀死他们，或者把他们带到其他地方，你让他们成了事实上的囚犯。你同意这点吗？

2. Your leaders are setting you up to become devoid of philosophy, humanity and most important, forgiveness and compassion for those that are unlearned and do not realize the suffering they have caused. Fear is not love, fear is hatred. If the chinese government is moral only to material possession, than a chinese citizen becomes what?

你的领导人让你变得不通哲学、人性和最重要的东西——宽恕和同情那些没有学习机会且没有意识到他们所承受痛苦的人。恐惧不是爱，恐惧是仇恨。如果中国政府只对物质占有有道德，那么中国人会变成什么？

rvsakhadeo
By this logic, since India was also part of the British Empire, we should go back to being ruled by them
i'm laughing. indian desperatedly want to split tibet from china.

按照这种逻辑，既然印度也曾是大英帝国的一部分，我们应该回到被他们统治的境地，
我笑了。印度人迫切希望将西藏从中国分裂出去才是真的。



just search one millitary map of that period, you will find indian army had builded their military post building in chinese side, even in behind of chinese post building, in fact, chinese understanded these actions as "india make invasion to chinese side".
that is the thing happened before war. it made china became angry then war happened.

只要在这段时间内搜索军事地图，你就会发现印度军队在中国一侧建造他们的军事基地，甚至把基地修建在中国邮政大楼背后。中国人认为这些行动是“印度入侵中国”的证明。这才是战争之前发生的事情。这使得中国在战争发生后变得非常愤怒。

dispute water is not one problem, india government did same thing to bangladesh too, that is common thing bettween governments.
: )
don't worry, if we want to get peace, always have way to solve these problems.

水资源争议不是什么问题，印度政府也和孟加拉国有类似争议。这是政府之间常有的事。
别担心，如果我们希望和平总能找到办法解决问题。

By this logic, since India was also part of the British Empire, we should go back to being ruled by them
tibet belonged china for about 700 years, include three dynasties period.
2. chinese tradition don't accept division, because every division all made a lot of people's death. unified country is hope of most chinese people. that shouldn't became special example to tibetans.
3. accroding your logic, since india is independent country, and shouldn't be ruled by british, (I completely agree about this.)

700多年前西藏就属于中国了，涵盖了三个中国朝代。
2. 中国传统上不接受分裂，因为每次分裂都会带来死亡。国家统一是所有中国人的意愿。西藏人也不例外。
按你的逻辑，既然印度是一个独立国家就不该被英国统治（我完全同意这点）。
既然如此，为什么印度仍坚持控制藏南和达旺？这片地区不是英国从中国手中抢走然后给了印度吗？历史上这些地方从未归属于印度，而在西藏辖下。既然你觉得印度人和英国人有区别，为什么你坚持认为英国人得到的领土也该由印度人继承？

besides, even if to hypothesis tibet don't belong to china again, that south-tibet still belong to tibet, not belong to india, what let indian to believe in the area must be a part of india?

此外即使假设西藏不属于中国，西藏仍然属于西藏自己，而不属于印度。是什么让印度人相信该地区一定是印度的一部分？



Jinit
There are some factual errors in you post.

你的帖子里有一些事实错误。