为什么一些越南人不满意中国对越南的作法？ [美国媒体]

Why do some Vietnamese criticize China's aggression against Vietnam? Don't they know that Vietnam has historically invaded Champa in the same way?

为什么一些越南人要批评中国对越南的作法？难道他们不知道越南历史上曾以同样的方式入侵过占婆吗？

答案一：

Kexin Zhang, studied Vietnamese & Chinese
If one day, the Cham people rebuild their country, then their history book will absolutely write down " they invade us and take our land for around several hundred years, under their evil rule( no matter it's true or false it must be evil), our people lost our culture, our language, our motherland, our nation, they try so hard to assimilate us, but we, still here, we kick them out of our land, we love our country!" And then, maybe at that time, they already forget their own original language, and like 70% words of their language are borrowed from Vietnamese, they can't understand their old written language. Because of the similarities of their culture, Cham people will still be so much into V-dramas or V-musics, but according to the history, they will have strong hatred towards VN or even worse, normal Vietnamese people. Their social media or government will use all kinds of methods to remind their " history", sometimes they can make some small changes to show how much they suffered, how evil their enemy was, and is and will be.

如果有一天，占婆人民重建了他们的国家，他们的历史书中绝对会写下：“他们侵略我们，霸占了我们的土地数百年时间，在他们的邪恶统治之下(无论是真是假，它都必须是邪恶的)，我们的人民丢失了我们的文化、我们的语言、我们的祖国、我们的民族，他们急着同化我们，但我们还在这里，我们把他们踢出我们的土地，我们爱我们的国家！”然后，也许到那个时候，他们已经忘记了自己的语言，他们的语言中有70%借用了越南语，他们无法理解他们过去的文字。由于他们的文化有相似之处，占婆人仍然会非常着迷于越南电视剧或越南音乐，但根据历史，他们会对越南的普通民众抱有强烈的仇恨，甚至更糟。他们的社交媒体或政府将使用各种方法来提醒他们自己的“历史”，有时他们可以做出一些小小的改变来显示他们遭受了多少苦难，他们的敌人是多么邪恶，而且现在和未来也是如此。



Ferry
a very good analogy point..

一个很好的类比。

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答案二：

Th? Nguy?n, studied Pharmacy at The University of Medicine and Pharmacy At Ho Chi Minh City
Short answer: Cognitive dissonance.

简短的回答是：认知失调。



Don’t get me wrong. I’m in total support of our claim on the SCS sea, but the current anti-China sentiments make me very angry and disappointed.

别误会我的意思。我完全支持我们在南海上的主张，但当前的反华情绪让我感到非常愤怒和失望。

评论：

Cheong Tee
It’s plain and simple nationalistic propaganda that implies Chams and Khmers are/were barbarians or weak or trouble makers that deserved to be conquered, while Chinese are evil villains to be united against. As you said even many Hoa had switched to be against Chinese as they were bombarded with such propaganda throughout live. To switch to become anti-China has certainly been a survival strategy in Vietnam!

这是一种非常简单的民族主义宣传手段，它暗示占婆人和高棉人是野蛮人、弱者或麻烦制造者，理应被征服，而中国人则是邪恶的反面角色。就像你说的，甚至很多越南华人都敌视中国人，因为他们在生活中到处都受到了这种宣传的轰炸。在越南，转而持反华的立场无疑是一种生存策略！



That said, they also didn’t stop the teachers from telling all of us about it, nor do they specifically block the information on the internet, so naturally, every Vietnamese knows about it. It’s not exactly the best-kept secret ever, imo.

也就是说，他们也没有阻止老师告诉我们所有人的信息，也没有阻止他们在互联网上屏蔽信息，所以很自然地，每个越南人都知道这一点。在我看来，这并不是最需要保守的秘密。

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答案三：

James Luong (梁孟俊), Concerned person
No one wants to be on the receiving end of a barrel, or a sword, or a spear for that matter. No one wants to be victimized. Im pretty sure the champa people were not happy they were invaded by the vietnamese.

没有人想要成为被一把枪、一把剑或者一根长矛刺中的人。没有人想成为受害者。我敢肯定，占婆人很不高兴他们被越南人入侵了。

But hey, do you know that champa invaded Daiviet, the ancient country that became part of modern day vietnam as well? The daiviet (vietnamese) and champa people invaded each other a dozen times over the course of half a millennium. Im pretty sure that the vietnamese did not like it either. So they decided that they would defeat the champa once and for all in 1471, and later completely erased the champa kingdom from the map.

但是，嘿，你知道吗，占婆人也曾经入侵了大越，这个古老的国家也因此成为了现代越南的一部分。在半个世纪的时间里，大越人（越南人）和占婆人相互入侵了十几次。我敢肯定，越南人也不喜欢占婆人。因此，他们决定在1471年彻底打败占婆，然后彻底从地图上抹去占婆王国。



Nathan-Khang Nguyen
Wasn't that issue already resolved with China's invasion of Vietnam in 1979?

这个问题在中国于1979年入侵越南时不是已经被解决了吗？

Cheong Tee
Yes you stated the rule of the jungle, then the question is why should Vietnam complain? Or should Vietnam not complain at all, since all things ought to go by this ‘rule of the jungle’?
A point of argument is that Vietnam is pointing to the jungle rule regarding the annexation of Champs and Khmer, and then ask about a different view when came to SCS conflicts with China. I perfectly understand why things are this way. The SCS conflict is present, so fight about it through appealing to a certain morality is justified, versus annexation and extermination that happened in past history. Nevertheless, cannot argue that there isn’t a double standard.

是的，你说到了丛林法则，那么问题是为什么越南要抱怨呢？或者，越南不应该抱怨，因为所有的事情都应该是由这条“丛林法则”来决定的吗？
争议点是，越南在说到吞并占婆和高棉的时候指向了丛林规则，然后又在与中国的冲突提出了不同的观点。我完全理解为什么事情会是这样的。南海的冲突是存在的，所以通过诉诸某种道德来对抗它是合理的，而不是过去历史上发生的吞并和灭绝事件。然而，不能说这里面不存在着双重标准。



评论：

Cheong Tee
US is far more imperialistic than China, just what US does is not directly affecting Vietnam at this moment. Then there is this ‘enemy of your enemy is your whatever’ thing.

美国远比中国更加帝国主义，只是美国现在的所作所为没有直接影响到越南而已。那么，你的敌人的敌人就是你的朋友。

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答案五：

Khanh Nguyen Nam, lived here for 15 years
Exactly.
Exactly.
No country is pure and devoid of war crimes.
Every country will eventually have to commit something horrible, one way or another.
But why are the Vietnamese populace angry?
The communist-inspired government has taught us in the history books for half a century since we gained independence that the Chinese, since our civilization first began, have continuously attempted to conquer us, which they managed to do so for half the time our country’s existed.

完全正确。
完全正确。
没有一个国家是白莲花，没犯过战争罪。
每个国家最终都将不得不以这样或那样的方式犯下可怕的罪行。
但是为什么越南民众会感到愤怒呢？
自从我们获得独立以来，这个GC主义的政府在历史书中教导了我们半个世纪，自从我们的文明形成以来，中国人一直在试图征服我们，在我们国家存在的一半历史里，他们成功地做到了这一点。



评论：

Kang-Lin Cheng
Wow, Vietnam’s descxtion of China is like how Korean historical dramas depict China.

哇，越南对中国的描述就像韩国历史剧中对中国的描述一样。

Cheong Tee
Very gutsy of you to say what you said without going Anonymous which has been the trend in Quora for Vietnamese wanting to say non-negatives about China. Yes there has to be a lot of very bias historical revisionism in Vietnam textbooks. Many generations have been thoroughly brain washed.

你非常勇敢地实名说出了你要说的话，而这是现在Quora的趋势，因为关于中国，越南人想要说出一些非负面的东西。是的，在越南的教科书中，有很多非常有偏见的历史修正主义内容。许多代人都被彻底洗脑了。

Son Ngo
Probably you should suggest a better alternative for those history lessons. The past is the past. Nobody criticize China for what happened hundreds years ago. But the current events sure ignite resentment toward Chinese government.

也许你应该为这些历史课程提供一个更好的选择。过去是过去。没有人批评中国几百年前做过的事情。但当前的事件肯定会引发对中国的不满情绪。



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答案六：

ThienLuan Le, lives in Vietnam (1991-present)
Yes! They definitely know that Vietnam has historically invaded Champa in the same way but that doesn't mean they do not have the right to criticize China's aggression against Vietnam.
The logic of this question is the same as this one :
?Why do some Chinese citizens criticize Japan for invading China in the past . Don't they know that China has historically invaded Tibet in the same way and now China is still occupying Tibet?
Or:
?Why do some Chinese citizens criticize Japan for invading China in the past. Meanwhile, China is now having aggressions against Vietnam?

是的！他们肯定知道，越南历史上曾以同样的方式入侵了占婆，但这并不意味着他们没有权利批评中国对越南的侵略行为。
这个问题的逻辑与下面这个问题是一样的：

为什么有些中国公民批评日本过去入侵中国。难道他们不知道中国历史上曾以同样的方式入侵过吐蕃，而且现在中国还占领着吐蕃？
或者：
为什么有些中国公民批评日本过去入侵过中国，因为过去中国也对越南实施过侵略？

评论：

Hensang Song
But China never belong to Japan and instead China is the sugar daddy of Japan in history.
Tibet has become a part of China since 12th century.
In contrast, Vietnamese used to be Chinese and Vietnam is a province of China for around 1000 years.

但中国从来不属于日本，相反，在历史上，中国是日本的“干爹”。
自12世纪以来，吐蕃已成为中国的一部分。
相比之下，在大约一千年的时间里，越南人曾是中国人，越南也是中国的一个省份。



很多中国网民称越南人为“越猴”，但为什么他们一视同仁地把所有日本人称为“倭人”和“鬼子”，把所有韩国人称为“棒子”，把所有俄罗斯人称为“毛子”，把所有印度人称为“阿三”，把所有英国人称为基佬。
中国过去是在收复吐蕃，而不是入侵。
我没有说过任何关于主张对越南拥有主权或其他的事情，我只是说了说历史。

ThienLuan Le
The founders and rulers of Vietnam in the past were always Vietnamese, despite the fact that some of them had the Chinese forefathers that might be traced back in the long past before. Those people had chosen their national identity by fighting for the independence of Viet Kingdom . And there was no China back then, but rather only several states which was non-stop fighting each others instead.

在历史上，越南的开国者和统治者都是越南人，尽管他们中的一些人的祖先是中国人，这些祖先可能要追溯到很久以前。这些人选择了自己的民族身份，为越南的独立而战。当时还没有中国这回事，只有几个国家不间断地互相争斗。

Hensang Song
Before ?inh Tiên Hoàng Set up C? Vi?t during North Vietnam civil war, North Vietnam had been the prefecture（交州） of China for 900 years. Its sheriff has always been Chinese as well as its people.

在丁部领在北越内战期间建立丁朝之前，北越在过去900年里一直都是中国的交州。它的治安官一直都是中国人，境内的民众是中国人。



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答案七：

Xu Lucy, studied at China
Tibetan invaded China 1250ish years ago and managed to occupy China’s capital for a few day. Does that mean the world should not be sympathetic to exiled Tibetans?
“In 763 AD, the Tibetans captured Chang'an in 763 during the midst of the Anshi Rebellion, which saw Tang China devastated by a massive Turkic uprising. However, the incursion was soon defeated” —Bell, Charles (1 June 2000). Tibet Past and Present. South Asia Books. p. 28?. ISBN 81-208-1048-1

吐蕃人在1250年前入侵了中国，并成功占领了中国首都几天时间。这是否意味着世界不应该同情流亡的吐蕃人？
“公元763年，吐蕃人在安史之乱期间夺取了长安，这次叛乱见证了中国在一次大规模的突厥人起义中被摧毁。然而，这次入侵很快就被击退了”——查尔斯·贝尔（2000年6月1日），《吐蕃的过去和现在》

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答案八：
Long Trinh
If Champa still existed, there would surely be countless demonstrations, critics, curses against Vietnam. But as the harsh reality shows, there’s none and we Vietnamese somberly acknowledge that hence we do our best to voice our caution of China loudly and fiercely so. Another reason is that China has repeatedly threatened our independence and the well being of Vietnamese citizens so instinctively, we endeavour to learn from our history to prepare for a better future.

如果占婆仍然存在，肯定会出现无数的示威、批评和对越南的诅咒。但是，正如严酷的现实所显示的那样，现实中占婆已经不存在了，我们越南也清醒地认识到了这一点，因此我们尽最大努力大声、强烈地表达我们对中国的警告。另一个原因是，中国一再威胁我们的独立和越南公民的福祉，我们会本能地从我们的历史中吸取教训，为更美好的未来做准备。

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答案九：



Jason Han
guess thats the same with every nation. It is a way to defend their interest

我猜每个国家的情况都是一样的。这是一种保护他们利益的方式

Ng Khanh
Lol are you even Vietnamese or not ?
The point is not about history. All countries in history were build by war. So please do not apply modern moral into ancestors. All countries are the same.
We don't deny it, we don't just claim them to be ours "since the ancient time" . We don't deny what we did to Champa and Laos and Cambodia in history. You are just ignore the fact that most criticize are about China act in modern time. Are you telling me now that China can do like what people do in medival time ? How civilized you are

哈哈，你是越南人吗？
重点不是历史。历史上所有的国家都是通过战争建立的。所以，请不要把现代的道德观念应用到祖先身上。所有国家都是一样的。
我们不否认，我们不只是宣称他们是我们的“自古以来”的领土。我们不否认我们在历史上对占婆、老挝和柬埔寨所做的一切。你只是忽略了一个事实，那就是越南大多数批评都是针对中国现在的行为。你现在告诉我，中国可以像中世纪的人们那样做吗？你可真文明

Cheong Tee
But Vietnamese often would drag out that “dark history of 1000 years of ancient China domination” as a constant reminder of the importance to guard against being conquered by China. If Vietnamese could stay in the presence then all would be fine, but history was dragged out, and it was sextive, like how China was cruel and threatening, but actions against Champs and Laos and Khmer were either not mentioned or sugar coated.

但越南人往往会扯“千年古中国统治的黑暗历史”，不断提醒人们防止被中国征服的重要性。如果越南人说的只是现在，那么一切都没问题，但是你们又扯到了历史，而且是有选择性地提及，比如中国是如何残酷和充满威胁的，但是你们针对占婆、老挝和高棉的行动要么根本没有被提及，要么就是被粉饰地很好。



Cheong Tee
It’s repulsive to lix Japan WW2 atrocity against China with a smiley face, quite a few victims of that time are still alive.
Yes ancient China empires did their share of conquering as well as gotten defeated, but the difference of relevance in this thread is that China nowadays does Not play the victim card with respect to those ancient events, like just mentioned the conquest by XX and ignore its own conquest of YY. However some Vietnamese now still drag out that old conquest by ancient China as justification against China now, while white washing Nam Tien.

嬉笑着把日本二战时期的暴行与中国相联系是令人反感的做法，当时的许多受害者还在世呢。
是的，中国古代的帝国的确征服过其他人，也曾被击败过，但是在这里的相关性区别则是：对于那些古代的事件，中国不再打受害者的牌了，就像刚才提到的被XX征服，但却忽略了自己征服YY的行为。然而，现在一些越南人仍然把古代中国的征服行为作为对抗中国的正当理由，同时却在洗白11世纪至18世纪之间越南领土向南方的扩张。