中国最强大的三个王朝:评论（二） [美国媒体]

China's 3 Most Powerful Dynasties

中国最强大的三个王朝:评论（二）

Elvis
I am aware of the difference. Today the Manchus, Tibetans, etc who are born & live in the People's Republic if China are Chinese as they are citizens of the nation-state of China. If we go by today's definition of what is Chinese, then yes the Qing & Yuan were Chinese dynasties. The author though was talking from a historical perspective, as he himself mentioned the Qing as being Manchu not Chinese.

我知道其中的区别。今天，在中国出生和生活的满族、藏族等都是中国人，都是中华民族国家的公民。如果我们按照今天中国人的定义来，清朝和元朝确实是中国朝代。可是作者是从历史角度出发，因为他提到清朝是满族而不是中国人。



Qing is Chinese dynasty if you refer to academic history book. In the history of empire, No foreign conqueror/dynasty adopt the pre-existing system, they impose their own. Manchu claimed the Mandate of Heaven to be Chinese emperor, like all previous emperors did. They continued the Chinese empire, the civil system based on Confucianism, the language, tax code...the imperial seal is Chinese too.

如果查阅历史学术书籍，你会发现清朝确实属于中国朝代。在中国封建帝国历史上，没有外国征服者和王朝会沿袭既存制度，他们会强制执行自己的制度。满族人和以前的皇帝一样，宣称自己做皇帝是天命。他们延续了中华帝国、采用儒家学说、语言、税法，甚至连玉玺都是中国的。

phdchef
You are confusing being Chinese with being Han.

你把中国人和汉人搞混了。

Faye Faye Elvis
Yuan and Qing were definitely part of China's dynasties, therefore, Manchurians and Mongolians are also Chinese.
According to your theory, not everyone is called American but only those whose ancestors had sailed all the way from Europe to slaughter the Native people are qualified to be called Americans !

元、清是中国历代王朝的一部分，这点是毫无疑问的，满族和蒙古族也是中国人。
根据你的理论，不是所有美国人都是美国人，只有从欧洲远渡重洋而来，而且还屠杀过当地人，他们的后人才有资格被称为美国人!



4. During their rule, a 4-level caste system was instituted:
A. Mongols
B. Semuren (allied groups from Central Asia & Xinjiang)
C. Northern Han, Koreans, Jurchen, Bai (Dali), & Khitans
D. Southern Han & southern minorities

4、蒙古族统治期间，实行四级种姓制度:
A、蒙古人
B、色目人(中亚及新疆盟军)
C、北方汉人、高丽人、女真人，白族（大理），契丹人
D、南方汉族和南方少数民族

5. The Mongols & Semuren failed to assimilate into Chinese society and more or less stayed apart.
6. Mongols & Semuren were favored in government and Han Chinese were discriminated.
7. Merchants from Central Asia, Muslim Persians, & Christians were preferred.
8. When the Yuan dynasty fail, the great majority of the Mongols left China proper in an exodus back to Mongolia where they established the Northern Yuan dynasty.

5、蒙古人和色目人没有融入中国社会，多多少少地处于隔离分离状态。
6、蒙古人和色目人收到元朝政府的青睐，而汉人在受到歧视。
7、来自中亚的商人、波斯穆斯林和基督徒更受青睐
8、元朝覆灭后，绝大多数蒙古人成批成批地离开中国，回到蒙古建立了北元。



Testerty
Sure, the same goes for Chinese dynasties. The Qing Dynasty is know as Manchuria rule, just like the Egyptian dynasty that is under Hellenistic rule. There is no difference in categorizing history here. But you insist on calling the Qing Dynasty a foreign dynasty while you won't call the Egyptian dynasty as a Greek dynasty, which makes no sense to everybody who agrees on what constitute Chinese history.

当然，中国的王朝也是如此。清朝是被满洲统治，就像埃及王朝被希腊统治一样。历史的分类没有什么不同。但你坚持把清朝称为外国王朝，去不愿把埃及王朝称为希腊王朝，这对认同中国历史构成的人来说没有任何意义。

Elvis
My mistake I thought the fact that I said that the elite was Greek and it was Hellenistic meant it was not Egyptian. Let me clarify then it was a Macedonian dynasty.

我的错，我说统治精英是希腊人，希腊化而已，并不是埃及人。让我澄清一下，那其实是马其顿王朝。

In fact this is from the Western version of Wikipedia, the entry for "Ptolemaic dynasty":
"The Ptolemaic dynasty was a Macedonian Greek royal family which ruled the Ptolemaic Empire in Egypt during the Hellenistic period."
To show you how Western historians view the dynasties of China, which from our conversation is different than the way there are viewed in China:

下面的内容来自西方版本的维基百科，托勒密王朝的词条:
托勒密王朝是马其顿的希腊皇室，在希腊化时代统治着埃及的托勒密王国。
在向你展示一下西方历史学家是如何看待中国各个朝代的，他们对中国朝代的看法和咱们讨论的有所不同:



While the Qing Emperors governed frontier non-Han areas in a different, separate system under the Lifanyuan and kept them separate from Han areas and administration, it was the Manchu Qing Emperors who expanded the definition of Zhongguo 中国 and made it "flexible" by using that term to refer to the entire Empire and using that term to other countries in diplomatic correspondence, while some Han Chinese subjects criticized their usage of the term and used Zhongguo only to refer to the seventeen provinces of China and three provinces of the east (Manchuria), excluding other frontier areas. Ming loyalist Han literati held to defining the old Ming borders as China and using "foreigner" to describe minorities under Qing rule such as the Mongols, as part of their anti-Qing ideology. Due to Qing using treaties clarifying the international borders of the Qing state, it was able to inoculate in the Chinese people a sense that China included areas such as Mongolia and Tibet due to education reforms in which geographic made it clear where the borders of the Qing state were even if they didn't understand how the Chinese identity included Tibetans and Mongolians or understand what the connotations of being Chinese were.

清朝皇帝治理用不同的、独立的理藩院体系来统治汉族以外的边疆地区，将他们与汉族地区和政府分隔开,真正扩大中国这个词的定义的是清朝满族皇帝,满族皇帝“灵活”的地使用这个词来指代整个帝国，而且在与其他国家的社交信件中也使用了这个词语,不过有些汉人则批评清政府使用“中国”一词，“中国”指的是中国十七省和东北三省(满洲)，不包括其他边疆地区。明朝保皇派汉族文人为了反清，坚持把古老的明朝边界内的地方称为中国，而用“外族人”来描述清朝统治下的少数民族，比如蒙古人。由于清朝利用条约澄清了清朝的国际边界,这就向中国人民灌输了一种概念，认为中国包括蒙古和西藏，由于教育改革，地理方面明确了清朝的边界,即便人民不明白为什么中国人包括西藏人和蒙古人，而不明白中国的内涵是什么。

In order to show that these diverse groups were all part of one family and part of the state, the Qing used the phrase "Zhongwai yijia" 中外一家 ("interior and exterior as one family"), to convey this idea of "unification" of the different ethnic groups. After conquering "China proper", the Manchus identified their state as "China" (中国, Zhōngguó; "Middle Kingdom"), and referred to it as Dulimbai Gurun in Manchu (Dulimbaimeans "central" or "middle," gurun means "nation" or "state"). The emperors labelled the lands of the Qing state (including present-day Northeast China, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Tibet and other areas) as "China" in both the Chinese and Manchu languages. This defined China as a multi-ethnic state, thereby rejecting the idea that "China" only meant Han areas. The Qing emperors proclaimed that both Han and non-Han ethnic groups were part of "China." They also used both "China" and "Qing" to refer to their state in official documents, international treaties (as the Qing was known internationally as "China" or the "Chinese Empire" and foreign affairs. The "Chinese language" (Dulimbai gurun i bithe) included Chinese, Manchu, and Mongol languages while the "Chinese people" (中国人 Zhōngguó rén; Manchu: Dulimbai gurun i niyalma) were referred to as being subjects of the empire."

为了表明这些不同的群体都是属于一个家庭,是国家的一部分,清朝使用短语中外一家这个词，意思是内部和外部都是一家人，传达了不同民族“统一”的概念。当真正征服“中国”之后,满族人把自己的国家称为“中国”(中央王国)，在满族语中称为“Dulimbai gurun”(dulimbai意为“中央”或“中间”，Gurun意为“民族”或“国家”)。清朝在汉语和满语中都将其统治的领土(包括今天的中国东北、新疆、蒙古、西藏等地区)称为“中国”。这就把中国定义为一个多民族国家，从而否定了“中国”只是汉族地区的观点。清朝皇帝宣称，汉族和其他民族都是“中国”的一部分。在官方文件、国际条约(国际上称清朝为“中国”或“中华帝国”)和外交事务中使用“中国”和“清”来指代自己的国家。“中文”(Dulimbai gurun i bithe)就包括汉语、满语和蒙古语，而“中国人”指的是清朝的所有臣民。



Peter_T
Rome was conquered 5 times by non-native Romans and yet they still counted as Roman dynasties. You shouldn't be too narrow minded in this.
Another example is that all past empires in which current China exists are considered Chinese dynasties including Xi Xia, Liao, Jin, and others.
As for Mongolia, Kublai Khan separated China from the Mongolian Empire and directly ruled it as a Chinese dynasty. The fact he changed the dynasty into Yuan instead of calling it part of Khanates was proof enough.

罗马被其他民族征服了5次，但是这些王朝仍被称为罗马王朝。在这方面不能太狭隘。
另一个例子是，现在中国土地上过去所有存在的王朝都被认为是中国王朝，包括西夏、辽、金等。
至于蒙古，忽必烈将中国从蒙古帝国中分离出来，直接作为中国王朝统治。他把朝代改为元，而不称为汗国的一部分，这就足以证明了这一点。

sfkoala
@Peter_T:
Outside of the Chinese Empire, the Xi Xia (Tanguts), Liao (Khitans) and Jin (Jurchens) were all Chinese States founded by non-Han Chinese. Incidentally, the Jurchens were the ancestors of the Manchus who organized themselves into militias called "Banners". That's when they conquered China, established a Chinese dynasty and became "Chinese".

在中华帝国之外，西夏(西夏人)、辽(契丹人)和金(女真人)都是由非汉中国人建立的中国国家。顺便说一句，女真人是满族人的祖先，他们把军队组织叫做“旗”。就是那是，满族人征服了中国，建立了中国王朝，成为了“中国人”。



Antony Kalashnikov
They are NOT Chinese dynasties, bitch.

这些都不是中国王朝，贱货。