哪个国家有着最不光彩的历史？ [美国媒体]

Which country has the most disgraceful history?

哪个国家有着最不光彩的历史？

答案一：

Rajesh Gindwani, Property Development Manager
Answered Tue
Two nations share the title Pakistan and Britain.

巴基斯坦和英国都有着最不光彩的历史。



Pakistan wanted all Pakistanis to speak Urdu, a corrupted version of Hindi plagued with Arabic words. East Pakistan, proud of their Bengali language refused to do so, and students protested. Pakistani leaders had these students shot….yes ..shot and that day was marked as a World Language Day by the UN.

巴基斯坦希望所有巴基斯坦人都说乌尔都语，这是一种被阿拉伯语词汇所污染的腐朽版本的印度语。以孟加拉语为傲的东巴基斯坦拒绝这样做，学生们进行了抗议。巴基斯坦领导人于是朝这些学生开枪，是的，他们开枪了。而这一天却被联合国定为世界语言日。

Pakistan was broken into 2 when East Pakistan declared independence as Bangladesh and Pakistan faced the biggest defeat any nation has faced since WW2 when 90.000 of their army was captured by India. Had not the Indian army taken them prisoner, they would be butchered by the Mukti Bahni, the Bangladeshi liberation force.

当东巴基斯坦宣布独立时，巴基斯坦分裂成为两个国家，孟加拉国和巴基斯坦面临着自二战以来最惨烈的失败，当时有90万巴基斯坦军队被印度俘虏。如果不是印度军队俘虏了他们，他们就会被孟加拉解放军所屠杀。

But before that they performed genocide on the Hindu population of Bangladesh. It is equal to what the Nazis did to the Jews. The sad part is while Nazi Germany is gone, Pakistan still exists.

但在此之前，他们对孟加拉国的印度教人口实施了种族灭绝。就像纳粹对待犹太人一样。可悲的是，尽管纳粹德国消失了，但巴基斯坦仍然存在。



China has not seen a country more loyal than Pakistan. Pakistan can be rightfully called the Vassal State of China. China gives two things the Pakistani nation need, weapons to fight India and money to sustain its crumbling economy. Pakistan shamelessly gave away Akshai Chin to China. But of course Pakistanis are not happy with this decision and one can see many Chinese citizens working in Pakistan returning home in their caskets.

中国从未见过比巴基斯坦更忠诚的国家。巴基斯坦可以被称为是中国的附庸国。中国给了巴基斯坦需要的两样东西：打击印度的武器和维持其摇摇欲坠的经济所需的资金。巴基斯坦无耻地把阿克赛钦交给了中国。当然，巴基斯坦人对这一决定并不满意，可以看到许多在巴基斯坦工作的中国公民都躺在棺材里回国了。

With all being said about Pakistan, there is no room left for Britain.But one reply in the answer section gives justice to what Britain has done.

说了这么多巴基斯坦，已经没有了留给英国的空间。但是这个答案中的一个回复对英国的所作所为给予了公正的评价。

评论：

Hamzaa Zamir
Typical Indian comment! Jealous of Pak and China freindship, very biased just admit it. The Hindus of India weren’t so lenient, people could not eat beef and if caught they where punished (still happens) and not to mention having a Hindu government only party. Both sides had bloodshed

典型的印度人的评论！你们在嫉妒巴基斯坦和中国的友谊，充满了偏见，你就承认吧。印度的印度教教徒没有那么宽容了，人们不能吃牛肉，如果被抓到了，他们就会受到惩罚(这种事情仍然在发生)，更不用说印度政府只有一个政党。双方都引发过流血事件。



Raisal Ven
Tue
A few issues here.First of all, its not Urdu that’s messed up, its actually Hindi that was Sanskritized Urdu, believe it or not. Also, the Baloch insurgency isn't as big as you believe. More muslims were killed in India than Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan during Partition, you can't only blame them. Also, if the Kashmiris wanted to be independent, its hypocritical to call Pok occupied but not Iok as well. Both nations are occupying Kashmir. Finally, this Hindu King of Kashmir was not the rightful King of Kashmir. His ancestors betrayed the Sikh Empire, resulting in its destruction and the murder of our soldiers, and for their treachery, the British awarded them Kashmir

这里有几个问题。首先，一团糟的不是乌尔都语，实际上印地语才是被梵语化的乌尔都语，信不信由你。此外，俾路支叛乱并不像你想象的那么严重。在印巴分治期间，在印度被杀死的穆斯林比巴基斯坦的印度教徒和锡克教徒还多，你不能只责怪他们。此外，如果克什米尔人想要独立，称巴控克什米尔地区为被占领区，而不称印控克什米尔地区为被占领区就是虚伪的。两国都在占领克什米尔地区。最后，这位信奉印度教的克什米尔国王并不是克什米尔真正的国王。他的祖先背叛了锡克帝国，导致了锡克帝国的毁灭和我们的士兵被杀，由于他们的背叛，英国才授予了他们克什米尔的统治权。



Raisal Ven
13h ago
You are kind of confusing Braj Bhasha with Hindi. Modern Hindi was basically Urdu that was Sanskritized.
More muslims were killed in India during Partition. While the brutality of the expulsion was greater in Pakistan, in terms of sheer numbers, you can’t just blame Pakistan even though the Hindus and even we Sikhs of India butchered them.
I’m not justifying the Pakistani occupation. Technically speaking, Kashmir was an independent state, but it had a muslim majority and thus logically should have gone to Pakistan. We cannot blast the Pakistanis for using this logic and then go ahead and annex Hyderabad.
You cannot say Muslims have no right to rule a Hindu land. Most Indian Muslims are simply converted Hindus, and thus native to the land. The Arabs and Turkics on the other hand had no right. And nevertheless, as a Republic, we really shouldn’t care about what that Maharaja thought. His opinion was invalid, he was a Hindu ruling over a majority that did not agree with his decisions. Its like the Nizam of Hyderabad deciding to join Pakistan even though the Hindu majority was opposed to it. Hari Singh’s family were traitors to the nation.

你把卡里波利语（一种西印地语语言）和印地语搞混了。现代印地语基本上是梵语化的乌尔都语。
在印巴分治期间，有更多的穆斯林被杀害了。尽管驱逐行动的残暴程度在巴基斯坦更为严重，但就绝对数量而言，你不能只责怪巴基斯坦，即使印度教徒和我们印度锡克教徒也在屠杀他们。
我不是在为巴基斯坦的占领行动辩护。严格来说，克什米尔是一个独立国家，但它的穆斯林人口占多数，因此从逻辑上讲应该属于巴基斯坦。我们不能用这种逻辑抨击巴基斯坦人，然后又去吞并海得拉巴。



Tulsi Ram
12h ago
That is the Israeli version . Israel has an excellent and very effective PR machine … :)
Pakistan has a major identity problem and a fixation on India . Wether they like it of not Pakistanis are Indians in denial . They strive in vain to build up a separate identity .
这是以色列的版本。以色列有一个非常优秀和有效的公关机器。

巴基斯坦则有着严重的身份认同问题和对印度的痴迷。不管他们喜欢与否，巴基斯坦都在拒绝接受现实的印度。他们徒劳地试图建立一个独立的身份认同。

Tulsi Ram
13h ago
That is the Israeli version :)

这是以色列的版本

答案二：

Vladislav Antonov, Former Military Officer/revolutionary/immigrant
UKRAINE
I love reading history books and each country has its own disgraceful history. It is hard to say which one is “THE MOST”, but Ukraine is one of “THE MOST DISGRACEFUL”. Let me go step by step to explain why. ( I am sorry for some historical inaccuracy, since I am trying to give you just some general idea, not write the history book).

乌克兰
我喜欢读历史书，每个国家都有自己不光彩的历史。很难说哪一个是“最不光彩的”，但乌克兰才是“最不光彩的”国家之一。让我一步一步来解释原因。(我为一些历史上的错误感到抱歉，因为我只是想给你一些大概的概念，而不是写历史书)。

In 1237 Mongols started their invasion of Kievan Rus. Territories of Modern Ukraine were occupied by mongols, many cities were burned, sacked and destroyed. For hundreds of years, people had to pay taxes to Mongols. Any refusal would end up in enslavement or slaughter.

1237年，蒙古人开始入侵基辅罗斯。现代乌克兰的领土被蒙古人占领了，许多城市被烧毁、洗劫和摧毁。几百年的时间里，人们不得不向蒙古人纳税。任何拒绝这么做的人都将以被奴役或屠杀告终。



- Meanwhile, Ukraine was divided between Poland (its western part) and Russia (eastern part). Serf under the rule of Poland had to fight against the serf under the rule of Russian empire in frequent Russo-Polish wars (Polish–Russian Wars - Wikipedia) - that’s more than 12 wars. Also, Ukraine had to fight with Ottoman Empire siding sometimes with Russia, sometimes with Poland and sometimes siding with Tatars or Ottomans to fight against Russians or Polish.

与此同时，乌克兰被波兰（分到其西部地区）和俄罗斯（分到其东部地区）瓜分了。在波兰统治下的农奴不得不与俄罗斯帝国统治下的农奴进行频繁的俄波战争——这可是超过12场的战争。而且，乌克兰不得不有时站在俄罗斯一边与奥斯曼帝国作战，有时站在波兰一边，或者是站在鞑靼人或奥斯曼人一边与俄罗斯人或波兰人作战。



During WW-1, Ukrainians were fighting each other on two sides: Half of Ukraine belonged to Austro-Hungarian Empire, while other half belonged to Russian Empire. Ironically, but quite often, Ukrainians had to fight against other Ukrainians under command of foreigners who even didn’t speak their language.

在一战期间，乌克兰人在两线作战：乌克兰的一半属于奥匈帝国，另一半属于俄罗斯帝国。讽刺的是，乌克兰人经常不得不在外国人的指挥下与其他乌克兰人作战，这些外国人甚至不会说乌克兰语。



1932年至1933年，由于气候原因和经济上的糟糕选择，乌克兰遭遇到了可怕的饥荒，造成200万到500万人死亡(有人称之为人为制造的饥荒，也有人说这是因为多方面的原因，包括乌克兰共产党的经济规划很糟糕)。



In 1941 Ukraine was the main battlefield during WW2. Just like Poland and Belorus it suffered the most - millions of people were executed, killed, sent to concentration camps. Many cities were burned and their inhabitants enslaved (were forced to work on German factories or farms).

1941年，乌克兰是第二次世界大战的主战场。就像波兰和白俄罗斯一样，它所遭受的苦难最为深重——数百万人被处决、杀害，被送往集中营。许多城市被烧毁，居民沦为奴隶(被迫在德国工厂或农场工作)。



In 1991 Ukraine gained its independence but not for a long. In 2004, Ukraine had first, “bloodless” revolution. New President was elected but he failed to fulfill his promises so his rival got elected during next elections, which ended up as another revolution (2014), which took away more than 150 lives. I was an active participant of this revolution (coup).

1991年，乌克兰获得独立，但好景不长。2004年，乌克兰发生了第一次“不流血”革命。新总统当选，但他未能履行承诺，因此他的对手在下一次选举中当选，其结局是另一场革命(2014年)，它夺走了150多人的生命。我是这场革命(政变)的积极参与者。



For me, this is one of the most disgraceful history you can think of. I can’t think of any century, when Ukraine didn’t have some sort of invasion from neighbors or civil war, or oppression.

对我来说，这是所能想到的最不光彩的历史之一。我想不出有哪个世纪，乌克兰没有遭遇邻国的入侵，没有遭遇内战，没有遭遇压迫。

评论：

Gerard Wall
While your answer is very interesting it is not an answer to the question, which you seem to have totally misunderstood. The OP was looking for examples of shameful behaviour like the treatment of Native Americans who has all their lands stolen and were massacred or Germany committing the Holocaust. You have described Ukraine’s tragic history where they were constantly brutalised by neighbouring nations. That is not disgraceful or shameful, its tragic and sad.

虽然你的回答很有趣，但它不是适合这个问题的答案，你似乎完全误解了问题。提问者正在寻找一些可耻行为的例子，比如印第安人的遭遇，他们所有的土地都被偷走了，他们也被屠杀了，或者德国实施的大屠杀。你描述了乌克兰的悲惨历史，在这段历史中，他们不断受到邻国的残酷对待。这不是不光彩，这是悲惨的历史。



Luis Serrano
Totally agree, I feel sorry for what happened/is happening with Ukraine, but the country itself has nothing to be ashamed of, Russia/Germany are actually the disgraceful ones (not only against Ukraine but also with Poland). For instances: Portugal, even though most portuguese (included myself) are so much proud of our history of exploration and conquering, the fact is there are also some disgraceful episodes in our history such as slavery, and the constant violence and warfare against the former colonies. Today we’re a very peaceful and progressive nation, nevertheless we’re told and aware of these disgraceful historic events.

完全同意，我对乌克兰发生的事情感到抱歉，但是这个国家本身没有什么好羞愧的，俄罗斯和德国才是不光彩的一方(不仅是对乌克兰，还有对波兰)。比如葡萄牙，尽管大多数葡萄牙人(包括我自己)对我们探索和征服的历史感到非常自豪，但事实是，在我们的历史上也做过一些不光彩的事件，例如奴隶制，以及对前殖民地不断实施的暴力和战争。今天我们是一个非常和平和进步的国家，然而我们也会被告知并认识到这些不光彩的历史事件。

Nesterenko Anastasiia
Actually Ireland and Ukraine do indeed have many similarities; there was even a lecture on the topic sometime ago in my hometown, Kharkiv.

事实上，爱尔兰和乌克兰确实有很多相似之处；不久前，在我的家乡哈尔科夫，甚至有一场关于这个话题的讲座。



Later Chmielnicki and all this stuff with Cossacks - they didn’t fight for free Ukraine. They fight for themselfs. Chmielnicki itself was a demoralized polish soldier.. We can compare him to fictional Captain Flint and all of the Cossacks movement in Zaporo?e can be compared to pirates in the west India (Carribean). They wanted piece of land for themself that they could be free there, no any more obligated to labor for gentry estate, pay tax and free to go for plundering drive to Tatars lands. They were not only ruthenians.. They were outlawed people from all around I RP and other surrounding countries…

至于后来的博格丹·赫梅尔尼茨基（哥萨克酋长国首任酋长，也是乌克兰国父）和哥萨克的这些事情——他们没有为自由的乌克兰而战。他们是在为自己而战。赫梅尔尼茨基本身就是一名意志消沉的波兰士兵。我们可以拿他和虚构的弗林特船长进行比较，还可以拿哥萨克人在扎波罗热的各种运动和西印度地区(加勒比海)的海盗活动进行比较。他们想要一块属于自己的土地，这样他们就可以在那里获得自由，不再有为贵族阶层的财富而劳作、纳税的义务了，也可以自由地去掠夺鞑靼人的土地。他们不只是鲁塞尼亚人。他们是来自四面八方的不法之徒。

You should not do like you did in above post. Trying to show history of Ukraine, polish - ukrainian - russian relations in several sentences is not a good idea. It brings to much simplification and simplification is a lie! It makes very angry and disappointed many people in both sides of border.

你应该不会喜欢上面所述的你们做过的事情。你可以试着用几句话来概括乌克兰的历史，波-乌-俄关系的历史，这并不是一个好主意。它可以被简化，但是简化的历史就是一个谎言！这让边境两边的许多人感到非常愤怒和失望。



Jorge Amado Soria Ramírez
ANd it would have been disgraceful no matter who did it, too. It?s not saying the US was specially cruel to the Natives, most likely everyone else would have been equally bad, but as it went, the US were the ones that actually got the Natives out of their lands and massacred a lot of them. Just because it?s history and most likely unavoidable doesn?t mean is not disgraceful and done by the US. That?s the way history works: recording what was and not what could have been.

而且无论谁干的都是不光彩的。不是说美国对土着特别残忍，很有可能其他地方的所有人也都一样坏，但是美国恰好就是将土着驱赶走并屠杀了那么多人的那个国家。仅仅因为它是历史而且很有可能不可避免，并不是说它就不是不光彩的，就不是美国干的。这就是历史的运作方式：记录所发生的事情，而不是本应该发生的事情。

Ulrich Wilsenach
This history is sad and tragic, nor disgraceful to the people of Ukrain.
A good example of disgraceful is the history being made right now in South Africa by the majority ANC populist (puppet) government led by Jacob Zuma, systematically destroying a country through corruption, greed, self enrichment and 100+ new race based laws againt a disenfranchised 8% minority group called the “Boere” (meaning Farmers).

对乌克兰人来说，这段历史是悲惨的和悲剧性的，但不是不光彩的。
历史上不光彩的一个很好的例子是现在由雅各布?祖马领导的占据多数的非国大在南非的民粹主义(傀儡)政府通过腐败、贪婪、中饱私囊系统性地摧毁一个国家，并且根据法律创造了一百多个新种族来剥夺只占8%的被称为“布尔人”（意思是农民）的少数群体的权利。



Peter Dunlop
as it happens I have been reading the history of the Baltic States and it of course mentioned Sweden, Austo-Hungary/Holy Roman Empire, Prussia, Rus/Russia/Soviet Union, and Particularly Lithuania and Poland. I think that Poland was fought over almost as much as Ukraine but it did have a period of near stability that Ukraine never seems to have had
I hope that things go better soon

碰巧我一直在阅读波罗的海国家的历史，它当然提到了瑞典、奥匈帝国、神圣罗马帝国、普鲁士、俄罗斯、苏联、尤其是立陶宛和波兰。我认为波兰像乌克兰一样，几乎一直在斗争，但它在近代有一段时间是稳定的，乌克兰则似乎永无宁日。
我希望情况能够很快好起来。

Nesterenko Anastasiia
They were lucky to have a more or less normal goverment and stable gentry. Since Kyiv Rus, Ukraine has not had such luxury.

他们很幸运有一个或多或少表现正常的政府和稳定的贵族阶层。自基辅罗斯事件以来，乌克兰从未有过这样的奢侈。

Liam Lightfoot
My family (Mother’s side) was from the Ukraine. Brody, Galicia to be exact, Which was Austro-Hungarian at the time of departure before WWI. The Holodomor or “Death by Hunger”, In my opinion, was purposeful.

我的家人(母亲一方)来自乌克兰。确切地说，是来自加利西亚的布罗迪，他们在一战前离开故土时还是奥匈帝国人。在我看来，乌克兰大饥荒是有目的的。

The Soviets took everything of possible good value after not meeting the spiked grain requirements for Ukraine. When the farmers couldn't give them the required amount, The Soviet Union sent men to raid farms and take anything of food value. This was after the harvest of course, and there was no food left for the harsh winter.

苏联在没有满足乌克兰自己的粮食需求后，就拿走了所有可能有价值的东西。当农民不能提供他们所需的数量时，苏联就派人袭击农场，拿走任何有价值的食物。当然，这是在收获之后，没有食物被留下来度过严冬。

It could be understandable that Stalin, in all his genocidal tendencies, May have done this to feed the people of Russia. Thing is, is that Stalin had troops lock down the Ukrainian boarder, so no peasants could get in or out. People just searching for bread could be shot if they were to ask for foreign aid or search for bread.

可以理解的是，尽管斯大林有种族灭绝的倾向，但他这样做可能只是为了养活俄罗斯的人民。问题是，斯大林派军队封锁了乌克兰边境，所以没有农民可以进出。出去寻找面包的人——如果他们请求外国援助或寻找面包——有可能会被射杀。

In doing these things, he endusured the death of millions of Ukrainians as they had no food for the entirety of the winter. People lied dead in the streets, and in their homes from the lack of food. The starving inhabitants have been recorded in engaging in widespread cabanabalism just to stay alive.

在做这些事情的过程中，他结束了数百万乌克兰人的生命，因为他们整个冬天都没有食物。由于缺乏食物，人们躺在街上和家里死去。据记载，这些饥饿的居民为了生存而出现了普遍的食人现象。

As a person with traditional Ukrainian history, I believe Stalin did kill the Ukrainians on purpose, as such with their groups such as the Katyn Massacre, which surprise surprise, The Soviet Union also denied, Along with many other purges in which the Soviet government had also denied.

作为一个了解乌克兰传统历史的人，我相信斯大林确实是故意杀害乌克兰人的，就像卡廷惨案那样，苏联否认了，苏联政府同时也否认了许多其他清洗行动。



Dale Couch
Ok. I see everyone's point here, but mine would be this: we are NOT disgraced by what is done to us, but by what we do (or do not do). I believe that holds true for individuals and countries. One way of expressing that is: to be dishonored does not necessarily make one dishonorable.

好的。我明白每个人的意思，但我的意思是：我们不是因为别人对我们做了什么而感到不光彩，而是因为我们自己做了什么(或没做什么)。我相信这对个人和国家都适用。表达这一观点的一种方式是：被羞辱并不一定会使人变得不光彩。

John Smith
“mutual conflict” are you kidding me. You want to know what's disgraceful? How the Ukranians massacred the Jews in World War 2 and the Kleymenetsky massacre.

“相互冲突”你在开玩笑吧。你想知道什么是不光彩的吗？乌克兰人在二战期间是如何屠杀犹太人的，还有Kleymenetsky屠杀。

Nesterenko Anastasiia
It is also disgraceful, yes. And it is sad that Ukraine never acknowledged this fact. To be honest, the whole Europe pushed it all on Germany and looks like nobody had cooperated in destruction of European Jewry. Ukraine just happened to be the area with high quantity of concentration camps and death camps at the time, so all the nastiness in people just doubled.

是的，这也是不光彩的。令人遗憾的是，乌克兰从未承认过这一事实。老实说，整个欧洲都把这一切责任推给了德国，看起来没有人一同合作毁灭欧洲的犹太人。乌克兰恰好是当时集中营和死亡集中营中数量人数最多的地区，所以人们身上的所有肮脏龌龊都增加了一倍。

Nesterenko Anastasiia
And the Polish were just as nasty to Jews, by the way.

顺便说一下，波兰人对犹太人也很恶劣。

Alexandre Bermudez Bagniewski
My great grandmother helped hide Jews and resistance fighters in her farm and was arrested and killed for doing Just that. She was Polish!

我的曾祖母在她的农场里曾经帮助藏匿犹太人和抵抗战士，却因此被捕并被杀害了。她是波兰人！



Marcin K?dzior
Oh you said about conflicts with some ethnic groupes. This wasnt a conflict-that was a massacre. Ukrainians killed up to 300000 poles, mostly women and children. They werent only killed-they were tortured on a hundreds of methods, just to cause possibly much pain.

哦，你说到是与一些少数民族的冲突。这不是冲突，这是屠杀。乌克兰人杀害了30万波兰人，其中大部分是妇女和儿童。他们不仅被杀害——他们还被用上百种方法折磨，可能只是为了制造更多的痛苦。