中国是有优越感、孤立和妄想的国家吗？ 上 [美国媒体]

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-------------译者：清凉油的盖子-审核者：文所未闻------------



An article in an Australian newspaper says that "sixteenth-century European explorers found a condescending, insular and delusional China, dismissive of foreigners and foreign technology, content to revel in the glories of its long past."

 一份澳大利亚报纸上刊登了一篇文章声称“十六世纪的欧洲探险家发现了一个居高临下、与世隔绝且耽于妄想的中国，对外国的人和技术不屑一顾，满足于昔日长久辉煌的狂欢之中”。

Does this still apply to China today?

这个结论现在还适用于中国吗？

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-------------译者：清凉油的盖子-审核者：文所未闻------------

[–]Domhnal 20 指标 23 天前*
Everybody seems to be defining insular by trade policy, but I can't think of a place on earth where people are less aware and less concerned about the goings-on in the world around them. Aside from third-world, war-torn countries that really don't have a choice, China is comprised of some of the worst global citizens in the world. And because of the glass dome they live in, they are, in fact, a bit smug in it. Admittedly, should they actually be able to access information, this might be an entirely different story, especially among the younger folk.

In order to be condescending, though, you kind of need a pedestal to stand on first, and I don't think the Chinese have felt one of those since the Opium Wars.

As for the rest of the adjectives: replace dismissive of foreigners with increasingly contemptuous of foreigners, replace technology with ideology, and replace "long past" with (their highly delusional sense of) "recent past", and I think we have a winner.

This description fails in facts, but is quite apt in spirit, in my opinion, so here's our new updated version:

twenty-first century Western teachers and business persons found a smug, insular and delusional China, increasingly contemptuous of foreigners and foreign ideologies, content to revel in the perceived glories of their recent past while suffering a severe cognitive disconnect from its long history.

似乎所有人都靠贸易政策定义孤立，但是我无法想到世界哪个地方的人们像中国人那样对自己周遭的事物那么的不关心。除了第三世界和遭受战乱的国家确实没有选择外，中国是由最糟糕的世界公民组成的。由于他们生活在玻璃温室里，所以他们实际上有点沾沾自喜。如果他们能接触到外部信息的话，那可能就不一样了，尤其是在年轻人当中。

要居高临下，首先你需要找块石头站上去，而且我认为自从鸦片战争以来中国人就没有这玩意。

至于剩下来的词：把“对外国人不屑一顾”换成“愈发鄙视外国人”，把“技术”换成“意识形态”，然后把“长久的过去”换成他们深深妄想的“不远的过去”，我们就是赢家了。

尽管这一描述欠缺妥当，但它的精神内涵相当适宜，在我看来，我们的升级版本如下：

二十一世纪的西方教室和商人发现了一个自命不凡、与世隔绝且耽于妄想的中国，对外国的人和意识形态愈发鄙夷，满足于不远的过去里他们认为的狂欢之中，同时蒙受与其悠长历史严重的认知脱节之苦。

-------------译者：文所未闻-审核者：文所未闻------------

[–]justanotherhulk 8 指标 23 天前
I would say they live in a Mirror done and not glass- the later has a view of the outside world but mirror is for pure navel gazing.

我认为他们生活在镜子里，而不是生活在玻璃里——后者能看到外部世界，但是镜子只能让他们自我耽溺。

[–]Syptryn -1 指标 23 天前
Huh? Isn't every middle class Chinese trying to send their kids to get a western education? How does that reflect 'smugness'?

中国的中产阶级不都喜欢将自己的孩子送到西方去接受教育吗？这能说明中国人自命不凡吗？

If Chinese people truly considered themselves central, wouldn't they all want to be educated within China?

如果中国人真的认为自己处于世界的中心，那难道他们不想直接在国内接受教育吗？

-------------译者：文所未闻-审核者：文所未闻------------

[–]Syptryn 1 指标 23 天前
Well I am only ware of the university sector, and in this sector, going to study at US for postgraduate degrees is probably high on 90% of the students lists.... It certainly bestows a since of prestige and success.

我只注意到了大学这个部分，在打算出国接受教育的中国学生中，有90%的人都想去美国接受研究生教育，因为这会带来荣耀与成功。

While I can speak for all middle class Chinese. My conversations with everyone so far has indicated that people generally all look up to kids who got scholarships to study at US Ivy League universities...

我可以代表所有的中国中产阶级讲话。在与中国人的谈话中我了解到他们几乎都想让自己的孩子获得奖学金去美国常春藤盟校学习。

[–]Domhnal 1 指标 23 天前
So no smugness in China, then?

如此说来，中国人一点都不洋洋得意？

[–]onchonchpalawonch 7 指标 23 天前
They do. The Chinese mind is one of contradictions. They know that China sucks, that Chinese education is poop, that Chinese culture is boring, but they will never admit it.

他们确实洋洋得意。中国人的思维相当矛盾。他们知道中国很差劲，知道中国的教育是垃圾，知道中国的文化很无聊，但是他们永远不会承认。

[–]BrainDeadUnit 3 指标 22 天前
"China is the greatest country on earth but I want to marry a foreigner to move to America and never have to go back to China," I've met several Chinese women in language exchange pursuits that communicated this in pretty much our first day of talking.

“中国是世界上最伟大的国家，但是我想和老外结婚并搬到美国，这样我就可以永远不回中国了，”我在语言交流活动中遇见几个中国妇女，她们在和我交流的第一天就这样对我说。 

-------------译者：文所未闻-审核者：文所未闻------------

[–]BrainDeadUnit 3 指标 22 天前
They also see the American education system as something to be exploited and held in contempt. There seems to be this idea that American education works against them, and that this justifies cheating and abuse (consider that recent affair where a huge number of Chinese college entrance scores were faked). There's a huge problem of Chinese (and Arabic) students cheating at my university (the common aspect being both groups have a large number of individuals who come from filthy rich families, and are here just for the degree, not the education, as their futures pretty much just entail taking over their parents career -- of course there are some American students who do this as well).

他们既想利用美国教育系统又蔑视之。他们貌似有一种思想，认为美国教育是针对他们的，所以他们作弊和滥用就变成正当的了（最近有报道称好多中国高考的分数都是伪造的）。在我所在的大学里，有好多中国和阿拉伯学生作弊（他们之间的共同点是，好多学生都是来自富有的家庭，他们来这里是为了获得文凭，为不是来接受教育的，因为他们的未来已经安排好了，就是接管自己父母的职业——当然，部分美国学生也是这样的）。

-------------译者：文所未闻-审核者：文所未闻------------

[–]amarcord 1 指标 23 天前*
It reminds me a lot of Lord Macartney's account of his visit to China (including his comment concerning wiping one's snot on a sleeve), which seems sadly to have disappeared from the internet in the last year or so. I hope someone has still access to a copy.

这让我想起了马戛尔尼伯爵访问中国时所做的记录（包括他写道人们用袖子擦鼻涕），遗憾的是他的这些记叙貌似去年就在网络上消失了。我希望有人能找到相关的文章。

[–]ting_bu_dongUnited States 3 指标 23 天前*
Lord Macartney
lmgtfy
https://books.google.com/books
id=3zACAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=Lord+Macartney+wiping+nose+sleeve&source=bl&ots=JUeTiD4tKu&sig=_uE_bHQW7gLMgUDiMk3VeWYBZQs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDcQ6AEwA2oVChMIw53J86KbxwIVxhseCh0qGA4R#v=onepage&q&f=false
"They seldom had recourse to pocket handkerchiefs, but spit about the room without mercy, blow their noses in their fingers, and wipe them with their sleeves, or upon anything near them."
Edit: non-google book format
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Our_First_Ambassador_to_China_1000132898/449
Edit edit: Our knives, forks, spoons, and a thousand little trifles of personal conveniency, were singularly acceptable to everybody, and will probably become soon of considerable demand, although the Government is certainly averse to all novelties, and wishes to discoimtenance a taste for any foreign article that is not absolutely necessary
The more things change, again.

马戛尔尼伯爵
让我为你谷歌一下
https://books.google.com/books
id=3zACAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=Lord+Macartney+wiping+nose+sleeve&source=bl&ots=JUeTiD4tKu&sig=_uE_bHQW7gLMgUDiMk3VeWYBZQs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDcQ6AEwA2oVChMIw53J86KbxwIVxhseCh0qGA4R#v=onepage&q&f=false
“他们几乎不使用手帕，而是随便的在房间里吐痰，用手指醒鼻涕，并用袖子擦拭，或者借用周围的任何东西来擦拭。”
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Our_First_Ambassador_to_China_1000132898/449
我们的刀子，叉子，调羹，还有其他各种各样的小物件，受到了中国人的热烈欢迎，所以需求量巨大，但是政府对所有的这些新玩意都持反对的意见，并希望人们不要对那些并非绝对必要的外国物品产生兴趣。

-------------译者：文所未闻-审核者：文所未闻------------

[–]thewhiskybone 20 指标 23 天前*
The Qing Dynasty wanted Europe to pay them tributes, and put them under their tributary system. Like you have to present gifts to China in order to have the benefit of interacting with them. In exchange, you can learn from them (their culture, customs, aesthetic, architecture, etc). They deemed themselves culturally superior.

清朝想要欧洲给他们贡品，并将欧洲纳入到他们的朝贡体系当中去。就像你需要给中国礼品，然后才能享受到与他们沟通交流的权利。作为交换，你可以向他们学习（文化啊、习俗啊、美学啊、建筑啊bulabula）。中国人自认为自己是文化贵族。

The Qing royals also made European diplomats kowtow to them.

清皇室要求欧洲世界向他们磕头。

But no, modern China is not like the Qing Imperials. They are very keen to adopt foreign technology. They also love to trade, so not insular either. And they don't force foreigners to kowtow to them.

但是现代的中国不像清朝了，中国人很急切的学习外国科技，他们也喜爱贸易，因此这个国家并非与世隔绝。而且他们现在也不要求外国人向他们磕头了～

[–]scottishjellybeans 4 指标 23 天前
The Qing Dynasty came after the sixteenth-century, though.

尽管如此，清朝室十六世纪之后才出现的。

[–]thewhiskybone 10 指标 23 天前
They were talking about Ming then. But I thought Ming China (not Qing) were happy to trade with Europe. Ming were noted to be fascinated by European things, and Europeans at the time were fascinated with Ming Chinese things. It was during the time of Qing dynasty when China was looked down upon as culturally inferior yet stuck up.

他们在讨论明朝。但是我认为明朝（不是清朝！）很乐意同欧洲人做生意。明朝人对欧洲商品很狂热，与此同时欧洲人对明朝商品狂热。中国被轻视为文化劣族，被认为傲慢自大是在清政府时期。

-------------译者：k966sc-审核者：文所未闻------------

[–]onchonchpalawonch 15 指标 23 天前
Well, it's seems like a complicated topic.

看起来是个复杂的话题

China being a big long old civilization they tend to see themselves as the center of all Asian cultures, even today. Which in a sense is true, most of their neighbors' cultural aspects originated in China. But nothing justifies looking down on other countries and people in a modern, civilized world.

作为一个有着古老文明的大国，中国往往把自身作为所有亚洲文化的中心，现在也是。在某种意义上是这么回事，他们的周边国的文化很多方面都来自中国。但是这都不能正当化在当今文明世界看不起其他国家和人的行为。

I went to Vietnam last year, a country rather close culturally speaking with China, and I found a friendly, welcoming people who treated me as their equal, no sign or worshiping or disdain based on my Foreignness, unlike most interactions I have with the locals in China.

去年我去了越南，和中国在文化上很相近的一个国家，那里的人热情友善，并且用平等态度的对待我，并不因为我是个外国人而崇拜我或是鄙视我，和我在中国和当地人的交流不一样。

Even in Taiwan I felt no animosity or worship of the Foreigner from the locals but equal treatment. Only in (Mainland) China the people tend to single out the "not-like-us", regardless of being raised up or stepped upon, this is a very annoying feeling.

即便在台湾我也没有感到对外国人的任何敌意或是被崇拜。只有中国（大陆）的人会挑出那些“不是自己人的人”，被捧还是被贬都感觉不舒服。

So are today's Chinese condescending? Maybe not, but arrogance is definitely on the rise along with xenophobia and racism.

那当今的中国有没有优越感？可能没有，但是自大的情绪绝对在和排外主义和种族主义一起增长。

China wants Foreign money and Foreign technology, but no Foreign cultural influence and no Foreigners.

中国想要外国资金和外国科技，但不想要外国的文化影响和外国人。

This situation can't last indefinitely in a super-connected world, China will have to make a choice, opening itself to all aspects of globalization, or closing its doors, My bet goes to the latter.

这种局面不可能在当今的互联世界中永远持续下去，中国终将要做出选择，全面开放全球化，或者关门闭关，我赌后者。

[–]laowailaoshistyleUnited States 7 指标 23 天
The doors are in the process of closing now, from my POV.

门现在正在关呢，要我看