【the verge】民众发起请愿，要求特朗普公开税务申报表 [美国媒体]

Democracy at its finest

民主正当时

【日期】2017年1月20日



That didn’t take long. A petition for newUS president Donald Trump to release his tax returns has already appeared on whitehouse.gov,the administration’s official website. In fact, it’s the first petition toappear on the newly-updated website.

片刻之间。要求美国新总统唐纳德川普公开税单的请愿已经出现在白宫网站上，这是行政机构的官方网站。事实上这是网站更新后出现的第一个请愿。



Howis it possible that the new website of President Trump, who has refused torelease his tax returns to date — in fact, went as far as saying he was “smart”for not paying them — would even show such a petition? Well, back in September2011, the Obama administration created this section of the site as a way forcitizens to get involved and garner the attention of the government on issuesthat mattered to them. Basically, it’s a leftover from what already feels likean era from long ago.

迄今为止川普依然拒绝公开他的税单，事实上川普总统对他没有上税的回应是因为他太聪明了，以至于川普总统的新网站出现了这样一份请愿，怎么会这样呢？回到2011年9月，奥巴马当局增加了网上请愿，作为公民参与并在他们认为重要的事情上获得政府关注的途径。基本上，感觉像是一个遥远时代的残留。

Asof this writing the tax petition has more than 23,000 signatures. If it reaches100,000, the White House has to give an “official update” within 60 days, atleast according to the website itself. No telling how Trump’s office wouldrespond, if the petition amassed enough signatures, but it wouldn’t be entirelysurprising if it was a 140-character response of some sort.

从这一请愿开始，已有超过23000人签名（译注：这是指到1月20日，目前是524135）。如果他能集齐100000个签名，根据白宫网站自己的规定，白宫就必须在60日内给予“官方回应”。如果请愿获得足够的签名，不清楚川普会如何回应。但是如果得到的是一个140个字符的回应大家也不要太吃惊。（译注：140个字符是推特的发言长度限制）


▼ HTC864
Why the hell not?
Posted on Jan 20, 2017 | 7:49 PM

为什么不他妈公布？

▼ knowles276
Because it would show him owing billions ofdollars and according to rumours many hundreds of millions of dollars worth ofdebt is under control of Kremlin allies.
These are just rumours, speculation, Idoubt even Trump knows his own accounts and who he owe debts to.
Posted on Jan 20, 2017 | 7:57 PM

因为那样大家就会发现他拥有数十亿美元。据传闻，价值数亿的债务在克林姆林宫的掌控之下。
这些只是谣言，猜测。但是我怀疑甚至川普自己也不清楚自己的账号，以及到底欠谁钱。

▼ BlackToe
More fake news from sad verge posterknowles276 who is a nasty person. His debts to Russia’s Kremlin adjacentoligarchs are actually in the Billions, ever since western banks stoppedborrowing to him. They have him by the balls. Literally there’s a guy holdinghim by the balls right now dictating how he’s going to remove the financialsanctions against Russian oligarchs.
Posted on Jan 20, 2017 | 11:08 PM

楼上是个卑鄙的家伙，发布假新闻。他欠俄罗斯政治寡头的钱有数十亿之多，从那时起西方银行就不再借钱给他了。他们抓住了他的蛋蛋。简单地说现在有个家伙拿住了他的死穴直到他解除对俄罗斯寡头的制裁。

▼ Redbean
Which side are you on? Seriously, I can’ttell your side after reading your very Trump-like comment.
Posted on Jan 21, 2017 | 2:08 AM

你是站在哪边的？真的，在读了你的亲川普的评论后我弄不清楚你是哪边的。

▼ jtfields
Have you ever looked at a tax return?
Posted on Jan 20, 2017 | 11:42 PM

你看过税单长什么样吗？

▼ salishsee
Actually, this isn’t a great example ofdemocracy, because the petition will go completely ignored.
Posted on Jan 20, 2017 | 9:57 PM

事实上这不是民主的好例子，因为请愿会被完全忽视。

▼ chadsmo
It’s already at 60,000. Can I sign it ifI’m not American ?
Posted on Jan 20, 2017 | 10:49 PM

已经60000了，如果不是美国人可以签名吗？

▼ zingbot
Well if Russia can do what they did thispast election, not sure why can’t sign it.
Posted on Jan 20, 2017 | 11:03 PM

如果俄国可以影响选举，当然也可以签名。

▼ BlackToe
Maybe the signee is an American, maybe it’ssomebody weighing 400 pounds sitting in their bedroom in another country. Who cantell.
Posted on Jan 20, 2017 | 11:14 PM

可能签名的是美国人，可能是其他国家的体重400磅的家伙，谁知道呢。

▼ escalinci
Yes. I think the downing street petitionswebsite in the UK, you have to at least give a postcode.
Posted on Jan 21, 2017 | 3:48 AM

是的，我记得英国唐宁街的请愿网站，你必须至少输入区号。

▼ jtfields
Personally, I don’t care about seeing histax returns and I don’t care if he paid any tax. Like every other person in theUnited States, he has the right to avoid paying any taxes as long as it iswithin the tax laws. People seem to confuse tax avoidance (the use of legalmeans to reduce tax liability) with tax evasion (the use of illegal measures toreduce tax liability.)

就个人而言，我不在乎看他的税单，我不在乎他是否交税。现美国的其他人一样，只要合法，他可以避任何税。人们看起来分不清避税和逃税。

Do I think it’s right that a billionairecan legally avoid paying any tax? No, but I also don’t blame a billionaire fordoing so. Who wouldn’t? When you are completing your tax return and you areabout to take a legal deduction do you stop and think "You know, I couldtake this deduction but I think I would rather pay more taxes to the governmentinstead because they need it more than I do?"

我认为亿万富翁可以合法避税吗？不，但是我不埋怨亿万富翁。谁不这样做呢？当你知道可以避税时你会因为别们比我更需要而向政府交更多的税？

Don’t get upset at Trump for not paying anytax, get upset at the idiots who wrote the tax laws. He’s just playing by therules. If you don’t like it, change the rules.

不要为川普没有交税而悲哀，要为那些制定税法的人感到悲哀。他仅仅是利用规则。如果你不喜欢这个规则，那就改变规则。

I hate that I’m actually defending Trump. Idon’t really like him at all. But his comment about being "smart" fornot paying taxes, while surely not smart to brag about, is absolutely a truestatement. No one pays any more tax than they legally have to. I’m sure an armyof IRS auditors probably descend on every return he and his companies file.

我恨自己在为川普辩护，我根本不喜欢他。但是他说他不交税是因为它足够聪明，然而还没有聪明到不要出来炫耀，但那确实是真话。没有人会支付法律要求以外的税。我相信国税局的审计员们可能已经查询过他的报税单和公司文件。

Finally, a tax return is not a financialstatement with financial disclosures. The types of information about hispersonal financial dealings everyone seems to think they will find by seeinghis tax returns will not be there.
Posted on Jan 21, 2017 | 12:10 AM

最后，税单不是公开的财务报表。每个人好像都认为看他的税单就可以知道他的个人金融交易信息，而这些信息根本不在税单上。

▼ Alexlfm
First of all, I am certain that a largenumber of deductions that he takes are not 100% legal, even if, as you said,they are taken by many. I am certain that the private jet is 100% written off,even though he frequently uses it to take "work" vacations. While thelegality of this, like a self employed person with their personal car, ismurky, and is rarely pursued in court, I still think that it is wrong and theperson who is president should be held to the highest standard. It’s notsomething I would personally ever do, as it is technically tax fraud. Hard toprove, but fraud.
Secondly, his full returns for the last fewyears (which every other candidate in recent history has released) would giveus a much better insight into where his money is really coming from and whoholds (and exactly how much is) his debt (because as a real estate developer heis guaranteed to have at least some debt) . The fact is that really we knownext to nothing about any of these things. On top of that they would provide arealistic picture of how successful of a "businessman" he really is.True it wouldn’t be as good as an in-depth financial analysis of his companies,but it certainly would tell us much more then we know now. The simple fact ishe could have billions in debt or significant assets overseas and we currentlyhave no way of even knowing that, let alone who holds/pays what.
Posted on Jan 21, 2017 | 12:27 AM

首先，我确定有很多的抵扣不是完全合法的，即使像你所说的，他们抵扣了很多。我确定他的私人飞机100%被抵扣了，即使他经常坐着飞机进行商业旅行。而这个的合法性，就像自由职业者的汽车是模糊不清的，很少被起诉。我始终认为这是不对的，作为总统应该以最严的标准要求。不是像普通人一样，进行技术性税收欺诈。很难证明，但是依然是欺诈。
第二，他最近几年的退税表（其他候选人都公开了税表）将会让我们更好的一窥究竟。他的钱是哪来的，谁在持有他的债务，有多少债务，作为房地产商，他肯定有一些债务。事实上我们对此一无所知。最重要的是它们能告诉我们这个商人到底有多成功。当然不会像他的公司金融分析师那样了解的清楚，但是至少比现在知道的要多。简单的事实是他有几十亿的债务或者重要资产在海外，我们目前根本没有办法知道，更不必说谁持有谁支付了。

▼ jtfields
My guess is that his companies own his jetsand they have some sort of formula or system to approximate personal use inorder to calculate an amount to allocate to him as personal use (i.e. not taxdeductible.) In my experience, the deductions from bending those kinds of rulesfor very wealthy people or large companies don’t reduce the tax in a materialenough way to warrant the risk of the ramifications of getting caught.Typically what you are going to see is the stretching of more complicated taxissues that aren’t so cut and dry, which are the ones that end up in tax court.I’m sure the IRS has as a continuous presence at Trump’s companies.
As to your second point, very little of theinformation you are hoping to find would actually be in his tax returns. Thatsaid, the numbers behind his returns are 1,000 time more complicated than anyother president before him and could give some information to his companies’competitors that he would not want them to have so I could see why he wouldprefer to keep them private. However, I’m fairly cynical so my true belief isthat he’s just worried about the public backlash when they find out for certainthat he has not paid any taxes (which, as I said, I don’t have a problem withas long as it’s legal.)
Posted on Jan 21, 2017 | 2:34 AM

我猜他飞机属于公司，他们有一些公式或系统来估算个人使用，计算属于他个人的总数（例如不能抵扣的）以我的经验，一些有钱人和大公司在材料里通过歪曲规则不能保证安全的减税。典型的作法是在那些更加复杂而不是那些简单的税项里做手脚，这些税项会一直到税务法庭才算结束。我确定川普的公司里一直有国税局的人。
至于你的第二点，在他的申税清单中很少会有你想要找的那些东西。也就是说，他税单背后的东西比他的那些前任要复杂1000倍，这些可能会被他的商业竞争对手获得，这就是为什么他要保密。但是我是相当愤青的，所以我的确相信他就是担心公众一旦发现他没有交任何税时会非常震惊。

▼ davidcmal
While Mitt Romney didn’t get elected asPresident. He did release his tax returns and he is estimated to be worth 250million. While that is not near what President Trump is estimated to be worthit is still going to be "complicated". Before that John/Teresa Kerryalso released their tax returns as well. Their combined net worth would becloser to President Trump’s.
Posted on Jan 24, 2017 | 3:49 PM

罗姆尼没有选上总统，他确实公开了他的税单。他估计有2.5亿美元。然而与云里雾里的川普差得远了。克里也公开了他的税单。他们的资产净值总和可能接近川普总统。

▼ lokhor
It’s at 78,000 now!
Posted on Jan 21, 2017 | 12:58 AM

现在是78000了！

▼ Redbean
I’m more interested in his actual charityactivities. Tax is business; charity is conscience.
Posted on Jan 21, 2017 | 2:11 AM

我对他的慈善行为更感兴趣，纳税是生意；慈善是良心。

▼ bolawastaken
You’d get to see that from his taxes aswell…
Posted on Jan 21, 2017 | 2:19 AM

从他的税单里也能看出这个…

▼ jtfields
Finally…someone is actually interested insomething that would be in his tax returns!!!!
Posted on Jan 21, 2017 | 2:43 AM

最终，在他的税单里有人们真正感兴趣的东西！！！

▼ city talk
Its well-documented that he’s a verygenerous person. I’m not someone who thinks that that necessarily means yourgood, but it is what it is.
Posted on Jan 22, 2017 | 3:32 PM

有充分的依据他是个非常慷慨的人。我并不是认为这就一定是好人，但是他确实是慷慨的人。

▼ Redbean
Well-documented…where the heck are thedocuments?
Posted on Jan 23, 2017 | 2:46 AM

充分的依据…证据在哪？

▼ city talk
In periodicals. Jk I just mean there havebeen a lot of accounts of personal generosity in the news. For instance, hegave 10,000 to a single father who posted some touching story Donald saw beforethe inauguration and invited him out. Lots and lots of individual stories likethat. Except thats not public Donald that does that, it’s the reclusive privateDonald, so he doesn’t promote any of the stories himself.
Posted on Jan 23, 2017 | 10:28 AM

JK期刊里，记载了很多个人慷慨故事的新闻。例如，一个单身父亲的故事打动了他，在就职典礼之前他给了1万美元，还邀请他出席。有很多像这样的故事。他没有公开宣扬而是私下做的，他没有自己推销过这些故事。

▼ Redbean
The most reported, and hence verified,"charity" he has done is buying a 6 ft portrait of himself using thefoundation money. In regards to the "lots and lots individualstories", I would just say it sounds very Trump-like exaggeration and lackof factual support.
Ironically, how do you come to knowanything about the private reclusive Donald, if that exists at all in terms ofcharity? And him not promoting charity work is just against his very naturefrom all we’ve seen and hence could reasonably infer.
Posted on Jan 23, 2017 | 5:02 PM

大多数的报道，已经得到证明的他做过的慈善就是他用基金会的钱买了一副六英尺的自画像。关于“大量的个人故事”，我只能说听起来非常像川普式的自吹自擂，缺乏事实依据。
讽刺的是，如果这些慈善确实存在的话，你是怎么知道那些川普的私事的呢。他不宣扬他的好人好事，但是我们所见所闻都是违反他的这一天性的，因此这是合理的推论。

▼ trabuki
There is now over 103,000 signatures. Surehope he releases them as it seems to be in the interest of the people whomelected him.
Posted on Jan 21, 2017 | 6:48 AM

超过103000个签名。希望他公开税表满足选民的关注。

▼ ledrill
He’s nothing but a YUUUUUUUUGE fckingfraud, folks.
That’s exactly why he will never release histax returns.
Americans are fcking idiots.
Posted on Jan 21, 2017 | 8:42 PM

他啥也不是，就他妈一骗子，伙计们。
这就是他不公开税表的原因。
美国人都傻了。

▼ CrazyLance
Right… but, this really isn’t about howmuch he’s paid in taxes at this point. We all know its probably low. It moreabout where his money is.
Posted on Jan 22, 2017 | 4:18 AM

我们真不关心他付了多少税。我们都知道可能很少。我们更关心他的钱都在哪？

▼ theawesome1996
Waiting for the official statement to justread: "No."
Posted on Jan 22, 2017 | 3:12 AM

等着看吧，官方声明就是一一句话：“不公开”。

▼ Spartan 26.2
If it reaches 100,000, the White House hasto give an "official update" within 60 days…
An answer, yes. The answer you want? Notnecessarily.
Posted on Jan 22, 2017 | 4:18 AM

如果达到1000000，白宫必须在60天内给出官方声明。。。
会有答案吗？会的。是你想要的那个答案？未必。