为什么受过教育的中国人依旧认为台湾是PRC的一部分(Quora) [美国媒体]

Why do educated Chinese people still believe Taiwan is part of People's Republic of China, if the People's Republic of China has never actually controlled Taiwan?

为什么受过教育的中国人依旧认为台湾是PRC的一部分，如果PRC实际上并不曾控制过台湾呢？





Feifei Wang, I spend about the same amount of my life in China and in the US.
Thank you for listing me as an example of an intelligent person, but you also insult me as an ignorant person who is brainwashed by the Chinese government. Without checking history, you automatically assume I take my stands on Taiwan because I was brainwashed by Chinese government instead of me doing my research and forming my own opinion. I can assure you, I'm not brainwashed at all. I know a lot about Chinese government propaganda, AND western propaganda. Oh yes, every government broadcasts propaganda. If you think your western government tells you the truth nothing but the truth, you're delusional.

谢谢你把我列为聪明人中的一位，但你也由于把我看作是被中国政府洗脑的无知者而冒犯了我。在没有核对历史的前提下，你自动认为我站在台湾一边是因为我被中国政府洗脑了而不是我通过自己的调查来形成我自己的观点。我可以向你保证，我根本就没有被洗脑。我知道很多关于中国政府的宣传，和西方的宣传。哦是的，每一个政府都会广播宣传。如果你认为你的西方政府告诉了你事实而且全部是事实，你可真是在做梦。

Now, let's talk about Taiwan history. Because China's claim to Taiwan is based on a historical claim.

现在，让我们谈谈有关于台湾的历史。因为中国对台湾的主张是基于历史申明的。

Taiwan, by itself, was (and still is) an insignificant small island with very limited natural resources and primitive indigenous people. Taiwan was first colonized by Dutch and Spanish colonists. Later the Ming admiral Zheng Chenggong attacked Taiwan and took the island as part of Ming Dynasty in 1662. In 1683, the entire Taiwan island became part of Qing empire, first as part of Fujian province, later as its own province. Since then Taiwan had been part of China for over three centuries until in 1895 China lost the first Sino-Japanese war, and as part of postwar repayment to Japan, Taiwan was ceded to Japan as its colony in the Treaty of Shimonoseki, an unequal treaty forced upon Qing government by Japan.

台湾，就它本身而言（而且现在还是）是一个无关紧要的小岛有着非常有限的自然资源和原始本土住民。台湾最先由荷兰和西班牙的殖民者殖民。之后明朝大臣郑成功攻击台湾并于1662将这座岛纳为明朝的一部分。在1683，整个台湾岛成为了明帝国的一部分，首先被作为福建省的一部分，之后又独自成为一省。自那以后台湾就作为中国的一部分超过了3个世纪，直到1895中国输掉了中日甲午战争，作为一部分战后对日本的赔偿，台湾在马关条约中被割让给日本作为其殖民地，（马关条约）是清政府与日本强制签订的不平等条约。

If Taiwan was never part of China, how could the Qing government cede it to Japan? You can't cede an independent country to an other country. You cede your own territory to another country.

如果台湾从来不是中国的一部分，清政府如何将它割让给日本？你不能将一个独立的国家割让给另一个国家。你（只能）割让你自己的领土给另一个国家。

After losing World War II, Japan lost Taiwan as well. And the island was returned to the Chinese government.By now, however, the people in Taiwan had become quite fond of Japan's rule and some of them weren't happy with being taken back as part of China. Partly because Taiwan being the first oversea colony of Japan, Japan wanted to set a good example for its other (possible) future colonies. Not only Japan didn't commit much mass murder like it did later in mainland China, it actually helped Taiwan with a lot of infrastructure construction, set up schools (teaching Japanese of course) and was generally quite nice to Taiwan. That's why a lot of Taiwan people had fond memories of Japan occupation even they're second class citizens. While the corruption of the new Chinese government didn't help the situation, and there're a few rebellions breaking out.

在输掉二战之后，日本也失去了台湾，并且该岛也被归还给中国政府。然而，到目前为止，台湾的人们已经相当习惯了日本的统治并且他们中的一些人对重新作为中国的一部分表示不悦。部分是由于台湾作为日本首个海外殖民地，日本希望为它未来（可能的）其他殖民地树立一个好榜样。日本不仅没有施行大量像它之后在中国大陆那样的大屠杀，它实际上帮助台湾做了许多基础设施，设立学校（当然了是教日语）并且对台湾相当不错。那就是为什么很多台湾人喜欢回忆日本占领，即便他们是二等公民，反观腐败的（当时的）新中国政府并没有帮助形势，并有一些反叛爆发。

After three years of civil war, Chiang Kai-shek ran and took Taiwan as its base of operation, that had started the long history of separation of Taiwan and Mainland China.

在3年内战之后，蒋介石落跑并将台湾作为他的行动根据地，而这开始了台湾与中国大陆分裂的长期历史。

As you can see, after Ming dynasty took Taiwan, and with the sole exception of Japan occupation, whatever happened in Taiwan was China's internal affairs. Taiwan has been part of China longer than US has been a country.

就你所能看到的，在明朝接管台湾之后，和日本独自占领的例外，在台湾发生的一切都是中国的内部事物。台湾作为中国的一部分比美国成为一个国家的时间都长。

I'm talking about solid, record history. There's nothing "propaganda" about it. China has the historical claim of Taiwan, Taiwan has always been part of China. And due to political differences between two parties, now Taiwan is an autonomous province. ROC want to be independent because nationalist party wants to hold against communist party. I could say it flamed the Taiwan independence movement. I could say Taiwan independence is a product of political propaganda. US plays a role in this political struggle because it wants to keep an foothold in Southeast Asia sea, to keep China under control. If you think US helps out Taiwan because it believe in democracy and some such idealistic crap, you're 图样图森迫 (too young too simple). Every major power involved in Taiwan issue want something of their own, it has very little to do with regular Taiwan people.

我在谈论领土，历史记录。这里没有半点关于它的“宣传”。中国历史上对台湾宣示主权，台湾一直都是中国的一部分。并且鉴于两党间的政治不同，现在台湾是一个自制省。ROC希望独立是因为国民党想要对抗共产党。我认为它是引发台湾独立举动的导火索。我认为台湾独立是政治宣传的产物。美国在这场政治角逐中亦参与其中它希望东南亚海洋上保留一块立足点，来保持对中国的控制。如果你认为美国帮助台湾独立是因为相信民主和一些诸如此类的理想主义废话，你还真是too young too simple。每个卷入台湾问题的主要势力都有它们像得到的东西，而这对常驻台湾的人们帮助甚少。

When I say Taiwan belongs to China, I don't mean Taiwan belongs to the Communist Party. If you ask me, the Communist Party shouldn't own mainland China, let alone Taiwan. I believe Taiwan belongs to the political, cultural, and geographical entity known as China. If there's a political revolution and some new government has replaced the Communist Party to represent China, this new political entity (totalitarian or democratic) would inherit the claim on Taiwan.

当我说台湾属于中国的时候，我并不意味台湾属于共产党。依我看，共产党不应该拥有中国大陆，离台湾远点。我认为台湾属于政治上，文化上，地理上被认知的中国，如果掀起一场政治革命并且有新的政府取代了共产党来代表中国，这个新的实体应该继承对台湾的主张。

Peter Malcournne works at ACP MEDIA
Feifei Wang's argument has an unsolvable contradiction at its core. 

Feifei Wang的核心论点里有一个无法解决的矛盾

She says: "Taiwan, by itself, was (and still is) an insignificant small island with very limited natural resources and primitive indigenous people."

她说：“台湾，就它本身而言（而且现在还是）是一个无关紧要的小岛有着非常有限的自然资源和原始本土住民。”

She gives us a potted history of the past 400 years. Taiwan was colonised by (in turn) the Dutch, the Spanish, the Ming Chinese, then Japan. Following the Japanese defeat in WWII, the Nationalists controlled China and then - following their defeat to the Communists - retreated to Taiwan.

她给我们过去400年历史的概述。台湾被荷兰，西班牙，明朝，日本殖民过。在日本败于二战，国民党控制了中国然后—在他们被共产党打败后—撤回了台湾。

So how does this make Taiwan part of the PRC? For the PRC claim is simply one of conquest. The same 'might is right' realpolitik that underpinned empires from Egypt to Greece to Rome; from the Mongols to China and to the European powers. It's a cynical view of the world - and I have to stay at odds with the PRC's commendable anti-colonial rhetoric in recent decades. But what it also means is that when you stop holding the territory, it's no longer yours. 

所以这怎么就让台湾成为PRC的一部分了呢？因为PRC的主张仅仅不过是攻占中的一个。相似的“强权即公理”也支持着埃及到希腊到罗马帝国；从蒙古人到中国再到西方势力。这是犬儒对待世界的看法并且我对PRC近几十年来令人称赞的反殖民辞藻持异议态度。但这也意味着当你停止持有领土时，它就不再是你的了。

As a colonial invader, the PRC has no greater moral claim to Taiwan than the Dutch, Spanish or Japanese. Or the nationalist Chinese for that matter.

作为殖民侵略者，PRC不比荷兰，西班牙或者日本对台湾有着更加道德的主张，亦或是国民党在这件事情上。

Taiwan belongs to its "primitive" indigenous people. See taiwanese aborigines

台湾属于它“原始的”原住人们。查看台湾原住民。

Joseph Wang Chief Scientist, Bitquant Research
The two statements are different.  

这两种声明是不同的。

No one believes that Taiwan should be ruled by the CCP.  Hong Kong is part of the PRC but isn't ruled by the CCP, and people are fine with that.

没人认为台湾应该由CCP统治。香港是PRC的一部分但没有由CCP统治，并且人们对这件事十分认同。

The chain of logic is that Taiwan is part of China, and the People's Republic of China is the sole legitimate government of China.  Even in this situation, there aren't many Chinese people that I know that are hyperinsistant that the PRC is the sole legitimate government of China, and most Chinese I know don't mind the idea of Taiwan being part of a China that includes more than the PRC.  

逻辑链在于台湾是中国的一部分，而且PRC是唯一合法的中国政府。甚至在这种情况下，我认识的中国人里并没有许多人过分坚持PRC是唯一合法的中国政府，大多数我认识中国人并不介意台湾包含除了PRC以外的东西成为中国的一部分。

International legitimacy turns out to be important.  For large parts of 20th century Chinese history, the government of China did not in fact control large parts of China, but maintaining theoretical control turned out to be important when things changed.

国际合法性是非常重要的。在大部分20世纪的中国历史中，中国政府实际上并没有控制大部分的中国，但是当事情发生改变时维持理论上的控制被证明是很重要的。

People care a lot about China.  People really don't care about the People's Republic of China, and I suspect that if Taiwan said "yes we want to unify, but it will be under the ROC flag", Beijing would at least give serious consideration to the proposal.  Conversely, one of the things that cause World War III is if Taiwan redefines the "Republic of China" as officially including only Taiwan.

人们非常关心中国。他们实际上不关心PRC，我假设如果台湾说："好吧我们希望统一，但是将沿用ROC的政权"北京将至少会对这份提议给出严谨的考虑，相反的，导致二战的其中一件事是是否台湾重新官方定义了“ROC”仅仅包括台湾

This puts me in an odd situation, because I'm a "die-hard" KMT supporter, and Mainlanders I know have essentially no political conflicts with my views than they would a Taiwan independence supporter.

这把我置于了奇怪的处境，因为我是KMT的顽固支持者，并且我熟知的大陆人们对我的观点根本上没有政治冲突，相对于（看法之于）一个台湾独立的支持者。

One irony is that the equation China=PRC tends to be advanced by Taiwanese independence supporters.  Very few mainlanders and certainly not the Chinese government insist on it.

讽刺的是中国=PRC被台湾独立的支持者利用的。极少数大陆民众以及当然不是中国政府坚持这样的看法。

Alex Ye, lived in Taiwan (2016)
If you do not know the real history,you can not understand that problem. the truth is taiwan is apart of China, it’s not a bully,when you know the real history about taiwan and when you understand the Chinese nation,you can understand why do we think like that.

如果你不了解真实历史，你就不会理解这个问题。事实是台湾就是中国的一部分，这可不是骗你，当你了解了台湾真正的历史之后你就会理解中华民族，你就会明白为什么我们会那么想。

Actually it is very complicated,for my own opinion, It is related to the Chinese history and the unique nation “chinese nation”.

实际上这说起来非常复杂，就我个人而言，这与中国历史和独特的“中华民族”有关。

taiwan’s history could be traced back A.D.230 . at that time,Wu state(it was a china’s regime at that time)sent ten thousand people to taiwan(at that time taiwan named YiZhou).In the Sui Dynasty(A.D.581–618),three times the soldiers were sent to taiwan in the Song Dynasty,we put Penghu(a island closed to taiwan)under our jurisdiction. In the Yuan(A.D.1271–1368) and Ming Dynasty(A.D.1368–1644),We set the Penghu inspection Office (澎湖巡检司)in Penghu,It is important that the name of the organization not means it only managed Penghu,In fact it’s jurisdictional limits including taiwan island.Although chinese has live in taiwan a thousand years before that,it was a sign that China started to managed taiwan formally.

台湾的历史可以追溯到公元230.在那个时候，吴国（那是当时中国的政权）派遣了一万人到台湾（在那时台湾被叫做夷州）。在隋朝（公元581-618）和明朝（公元1368-1644），我们在澎湖设立了澎湖巡检司，重点在于这机构的名字不意味着它仅仅管理澎湖，事实上它的辖区也包括了台湾岛.尽管中国人早在那一千年前就居住在台湾，但（设立机构）标志着中国开始正式管理台湾。

in the late Ming Dynasty,Ming Dynasty became weak,and at that time,Dutch colonists invaded taiwan and occupied successfully.After 38 years,A Chinese hero named Zhenchenggong recovered  taiwan .in the Qing Dynasty(A.D.1636–1912),the government set up Taiwan Fu(a management organization)in taiwan.

在明朝后期，明朝变得羸弱，同一个时刻，荷兰殖民者侵略了台湾并成功占领。之后38年，一位叫做郑成功的中国英雄收复了台湾,在清朝（公元1636-1912），政府设立了台湾府（一个行政机关）在台湾。

After the failure Qing Dynasty resisted Japanese Aggression in 1894.The Qing Dynasty signed illegal treaty,and taiwan was ceded to Japan ，in 1945,Chiang Kai-shek recovered Taiwan after Chinese people won victory to resisted Japanese invader during the WWII.
But Chiang Kai-shek provoked the civil war to the Chinese Communist Party.Eventually he failed and escaped to taiwan.This event caused the situation at present.

在清朝抵御日本侵略失败的1894.清朝签署了不平等条约，将台湾割让给了日本，1945蒋介石在中国人民抵御日本侵略的二战中胜利后收复了台湾。

And now because the PRC replaced the  ROC internationally.Taiwan is belong to China according to international law.

而现在由于PRC在国际上取代了ROC。台湾通过国际法属于中国。

taiwan and China mainland government has not end the state of war. although we do not fight each other seemingly.

台湾和中国大陆政府还没有结束内战。虽然我们并不明着彼此争斗。

This is the histroy,and another reason:unique nation.

这就是历史，另外的一个原因是：独特的民族。

China is a unique country,and Chinese are unique too.We think we are a family named”Chinese nation”.we have strong concept of home.We think 14 million chinese people (include taiwanese)are brothers and sisters.we do not allow any other force divide us,whether the force is from inside or outside.

中国是一个独特的国家，中国人也当然是独特的。我们认为我们是“中华民族”的一员。我们对家有着强烈的观念。我们认为14亿中国人（包括台湾人）都是兄弟姐妹。我们不允许其他势力将我们分离，不管这力量来自内部抑或是外部。

we Chinese has lived on this land for 5000 years as a whole.we can not allow a divisived China.

我们中国人在这片土地上总共生活了5000年。我们不允许一个分裂的中国。

It is Chinese rootedness obsessiveness.Since we were born in this world, we has possessed the obsessiveness.

这是一个中国草根的执念。自我们生于这个世界起，我们就传承着这样的执念。

Yichong Yin Know a thing or two about China, at least I think I know
You have answered your own question: because they are educated.

你自己已经回答了你的问题：因为他们受过教育。

IMHO: “uneducated” people in China couldn’t care less about TW: whether or not TW is part of China doesn’t affect their daily life at all. They condemn TW’s independence, at most, out of patriotism.

恕我直言：“没有受过教育”的中国人并不关心台湾：台湾是否是中国的一部分根本不会影响到他们的日常生活。他们顶多出于爱国主义，指责台湾的独立。

“Educated” people, on the other hand, see and understand TW’s strategic and economic value. Therefore, they are the ones that are bolstering the “One China Policy.”

“受教育的”人们，在另一方面，看到了台湾的战略和经济价值。因此，他们是那些支持“一个中国政策”的人群。

So…probably to the asker’s disappointment, your attempt to associate “One China” supporters with the “uneducated” populace is, in the eyes of many Chinese people, unsuccessful and ridiculous.

所以。。。。可能让你失望了，你尝试把“一个中国”的支持者和“没有受过教育”的人们联系在一起，在许多中国人的眼中，既不成功又荒谬十足。

Harvy King， born in Taiwan, grew up in US, family rooted in mainland China for centuries.
The source of confusion lies upon the fact that most people from the West in the post-Napoleon era has a relatively rigid notion of Nation State.

争论的本源来自于后拿破仑时代大多数来自西方人对单一民族的独立国家相当僵硬的观念。

China has been a centralized State for a 2300+ years, went through one dynasty over another.    Thus, Chinese has a relatively strong notion of (civilization-based) identity and not necessarily bounded by the modern nation-state system dervived 2000 years later during the Napoleaon time. We have developed a deeply-in-grained notion of

中国成为中央集权国家已经超过了2300年，从一个朝代到另一个朝代。因此中国有着关于相对（基于文化）更强的身份观念并且不必然的由起源于2000年后的，拿破仑时期的现代国家系统所束缚。我们发展出深如内心的观念：

1. a sense of who Chinese is  (which is not necessarily bounded by modern nation state)

中国是谁的感知（不必然由现代国家束缚）

2. the realm which Chinese belongs to

属于中国的疆域

3. the realm can only be ruled under one throne

只能由一个王权统治的疆域

Chinese don't talk about these three points because it is a second nature to them.   But because Chinese themselves doesn't articulate these points,  those in the West often don't realize these strong undercurrent actually exists.

中国人并不谈论这三点是因为这就是他们的第二天性。但是由于中国人自己并没有清晰的表述这几点，西方的人们通常并不能意识到这些强烈的潜意识真实存在

and Taiwan for some reason has become part of Chinese realm in a relative recent term.   When I say "recent,"  I mean in past ~400 years or so. Chinese people don't like to talk about it, but in general, compare with let say big part of Xinjiang, and South China seas,  Chinese felt much strongly that Taiwan belongs to part of that Chinese realm.

且台湾由于一些原因在相对最近的时期成为中国的一部分。我说“最近”，我意思是400年前左右。中国人并不喜欢谈论这些，但总的来说，相比于大部分XJ和南中国海，中国对台湾是中国领土的一部分有着更加强的底气。

The flip side is that Chinese traditionally shows very little interest in places which doesn't belong to Chinese at first place.  This is also the reason why China's land mass stays relatively constant through out 2800 years history, compare with let say Russia and United States, which tend to seek expansion when opportunity arises regardless geographical inconveniences.

另一方面，中国传统上对一开始就不是中国领土抱有非常小的兴趣。这也是为什么中国的领土在2800年的历史中大致上保持不变，相比与俄罗斯和美国，当机会来临时不顾及地理上的问题便寻求扩张。

Communist, Nationalist, Ming, Manchu (yes, even Manchus), and other dynasty before that,  they are just a regime super-imposed upon the Chinese realm.  If they didn't rule the realm in its entirety, than, that regime is not doing his job and this notion of "mandate of heaven" will be in question. Manchu dynasty was overthrown relatively bloodlessly in large part because of this reason.

共产党，国民党，明，满族（对的，甚至是满族），和其他在那之前朝代，它们不过是叠加于中国领域的政权。如果它们没能统领完整的疆土，这说明政权没有做好它的工作，“天的旨意”将会受到质疑。满族被相对血腥的推翻大部分是由于这个原因。

So, blame this desire of reunifying Chinese realm under one throne to Communist is not just unfair but incorrect.  If Communist government in Beijing is overthrown tomorrow, I can guarentee that the next regime, democratic or not, will have the same desire/policy/posture toward Taiwan.

所以，对希冀中国再次由共产党统一中国领土的指责是不公平也不正确的。如果北京的共产党在明天被推翻，我能保证下一个政权，不论民主与否，都会对台湾有着相同的希望/政体/姿态

That, along with the fact that root cause of Taiwan independence desire came from foreign invasion (Japanese occupation, American's 7th fleet protection, etc), makes Chinese even more willing to do anything to erase that "sick man of Asia" image and stand up again.

以上，和来自外国侵略导致台湾独立想法的事实根源（日本占领，美国第7舰队保护，诸如此类），致使中国甚至愿意付出一切去抹除“东亚病夫”的观念并再次崛起。