【油管】中国的地理位置问题的最新讨论（上） [美国媒体]

China's Geography Problem

中国的地理位置问题



【备注】视频是油管上2017年的，将近9千条讨论，只选取了最近五个月以内的讨论。

Edward South
I get the feeling this video is more about China’s Political Problem.

我咋觉得这视频讲得大多是中国的政治问题啊

Junyuan Ma
The video was about provocating China.

回楼主这视频是用来挑衅中国的

Junyuan Ma
Himajama If you put this topic into Britain and talk about the geographic value of liverpool to Britain, you will see the point. Britain will not give up liverpool not because it has geographic values but it is a part of Britain. By the way every piece of land has its geographic meaning. That's also why no coutry exists without territory. The video was trying to convince the audience that China invaded and occupied Tibet for the geographic value rather than just controling, protecting and holding her own territory. That's basically a prejudice made by western narrative to meet the need of cold war.

如果你把这个话题放到英国，谈论一下利物浦对英国的地理价值，你就会明白这一点。英国不会放弃利物浦，不是因为它有地理价值，而是因为它是英国的一部分。顺便说一下，每一块土地都有其地理意义。这也是为什么没有领土就没有国家。这段视频试图让观众相信，中国入侵和占领XZ是因为其地理价值，而不是为了保护自己的领土。这基本上是西方为适应冷战需要而制造偏见的叙事方式。

Himajama
+Junyuan Ma
your analogy doesn't work for numerous reasons, context being foremost. England conquered the Liverpool region for the same reasons they conquered the Scots and Irish; because the benefit of being an 'island nation' only come about when you are the only entity controlling the significant lanes of access to said island/s. it's a lot easier maintaining a strong navy rather than a strong army and navy. it's also a lot easier defending a coastline than open fields like those found in the English countryside. on a broader, more realist scale, if it comes down to a question of "demographics vs geography", governments will always take the more convenient option. in Britain's case, it was more convenient to put up with unruly Scots, Irish and Welsh than it was to have them as independents.
from a Chinese perspective, the same is true for Tibet, or more specifically, the Tibetan Plateau. because, as usual with the Chinese, any demographic problems that come along with administrating the plateau such as an unruly Tibetan population aren't significant while the geographical benefits are immense. from a security standpoint, there's multiple benefits. the most obvious one is that if China controls Tibet, then India cannot. for China, who two of their three major rivers (the Yangtze and Yellow) get their start on the Tibetan Plateau, it's a significant factor for their water and food security. militarily, Tibet could have been a staging point for anti-Chinese missiles with the entire population core within 2000km of those missiles and China surrounded, militarily, on all sides. now it's the reverse; if China chooses it, they could put missiles within 1000km of New Delhi and, with Pakistan on the left flank, India's heartland is within breathing room of China and it's allies. that alone is reason enough to annex Tibet. if i was Mao, i would have done the same thing.

回上面那层
你这个类比没啥作用，原因很多，背景是最重要的。英格兰征服利物浦地区的原因与他们征服苏格兰人和爱尔兰人的原因相同；因为当你是唯一一个能控制通往该岛的重要通道的实体时，“岛国”的好处才会显现出来。维持一个强大的海军比同时养出个强大的海、陆军要容易得多。保护海岸线也比发掘一块开阔的田野容易得多。在更广泛、更现实的范围内，如果说到“人口与地理”的问题，政府总是会采取更方便的选择。就英国而言，容忍不守规矩的苏格兰人、爱尔兰人和威尔士人比让他们成为独立者更方便。
从中国的角度来看，XZ也是如此，更确切地说，是XZ高原。因为，和中国人一样，管理高原带来的任何人口问题，如XZ人口不受控制，都不是什么大问题，而地理利益却是巨大的。从安全的角度来看，有多方面的好处。最明显的一点是，如果中国控制XZ，那么印度就不可能有控制权。对于中国来说，他们的三条主要河流(长江和黄河)中的两条都是从青藏高原开始的。在军事上，XZ可能会是反华的中转站，导弹射程在2000公里以内，中国在军事上被四面八方包围。现在情况正好相反；如果中国愿意，他们可以在新德里1000公里以内部署导弹，而巴基斯坦在左边，印度的心脏地带就在中国的呼吸空间内。既然是同盟国。那就有理由兼并XZ了。如果我是毛的话，我也会做同样的事情。

Junyuan Ma
Himajama Han people began to live in Xinjiang long before Renaissance. Chinese central gov had highest authority in Tibet hundreds of years ago.The evolution of a country is a dynamic process. Anyway, there are examples that an island belongs to different countries, so can Britain.

早在文艺复兴时期，汉族就开始生活在XJ。几百年前，中国中央政府在XZ拥有最高权威，一个国家的演变是一个动态的过程。无论如何，有很多例子表明一个岛屿在不同时期属于不同的国家，英国也是如此。

wildhorse023
Like Americans don't have any political problems or a rape ,sexual assault problem lol. GO WATCH THE NEWS PLEASE.

说的好像没有任何政治问题，或是强奸、性侵犯这类事情似的，有空很多看点新闻

Moemura
Its this wonderful thing called freedom of speech, get fucking over it.

这种美妙的事情原本叫做言论自由，然而被搞砸了

Entraya Crosshill
hard to have a geography problem without a political problem to make it really, really crucial

回楼主，没有政治问题哪来的地理问题，这才是关键点

John George Bauer-Buis
3 个月前
Junyuan Ma Exception: the Order of Malta is a country that no longer has territory.

回上面的马层主，有个例外，马耳他教团就是一个没有领土的国家

Dr Fill
Himajama they aren’t really problems until political relationships make them problems

地理问题从来不是问题，直到政治问题把他们变成问题

Simon Liao
politics ties with geography

政治和地理是有联系的

Blackfish
Junyuan Ma are you serious? The video makes a very strong case that Tibet is a critically important and indispensable part of China.

马层主，你是认真的吗？这段视频非常有力地说明，XZ是我国一个极其重要和不可缺少的组成部分。

Riverton Cooper
The nasty guy is just implying Tibet 'should' have nominal independence and affiliate to india rather than china, although by no means such affiliation will be more justifiable in historic sense, or economically benefit (if not damage) the locals, but let's support it anyway. why? because the US will gain from china's loss, but we have to state the motivation as if the local will absurdly benefit from independence.

这个肮脏的家伙只是在暗示，XZ“应该”拥有名义上的独立和附属于印度而不是中国，尽管从历史意义上来说，这种隶属关系绝对不是个合理的理由，也不具有经济意义，(如果不是损害)当地人的利益，但我们无论如何都要支持它。为什么呢？因为美国将从中国的损失中获益，但我们必须阐明这种动机，就好像这种荒谬的说法当地人民将从 独立中受益一样

Scott89878
"Many Chinese people keep mentioning how many Chinese and Tibetans had common ancestors 3000 years ago as the reason Tibet should be in China despite all the cultural divergence that has taken place."
FYI, everyone is related far back enough in time. As far back as 800 AD, every European that had descendants is your ancestor, if you are white. Because the Huns came into Europe and took white wives, we are descended from the Huns, who several hundred years back, end up being descended from people who lived in ancient China. So the argument that 3000 years ago, Tibetans and Chinese share ancestry is moot because that far ago, even Europeans share ancestry with the Chinese.

“许多中国人不断提到3000年前有多少中国人和藏人有共同的祖先，这是XZ应该属于中国的原因，尽管已经产生了各种文化分歧。”当然，在很久以前每个人都有亲戚关系。早在公元800年，如果你是白人的话，每一个有后代的欧洲人都是你的祖先。由于匈奴来到欧洲并娶了白人妻子，我们是几百年前匈奴的后裔，几百年前，匈奴人是在古中国居住的人后裔。所以3000年前，藏人和中国人共有祖先的观点是没有意义的，因为在那之前，甚至欧洲人也和中国人也有血缘关系。

Space Racer26
Deathless what are you talking about? Neo colonialism? Because Africa is corrupt that’s why it doesn’t look like anything is ever done there

Deathless你在说什么？新殖民主义？因为非洲太腐败，这就是为什么在那里什么都做不成的原因

motomusiq
This video is rather dramatic and assumes everyone is going to attack China. I don’t think it’s bad information but I find the tone funny.

这个视频相当的戏剧化，如果人人都想声讨中国，我不觉得是个坏消息，但是这个语气很搞笑

Zach Phillips
Really, I saw it as how China's geography limits it's growth as a nation. If it wants to challenge it's Eastern and Southern neighbors it will have trouble because they can block their trade routes, a geography problem.

真的，我认为中国的地理限制了它的国家发展。如果它想挑战它的东部和南部邻国，那就有麻烦了，因为他们可以掐住他们的贸易路线，这可是个地理问题。

d p
I don't know why people insist on justifying the Chinese state's territory grab as something of a national right. The explanations in this video make me respect the Chinese state's motives for expansionism, rather than lead me to believe that China's ruling class are fundamentally irrational, due to the same kind of nationalistic mind cancer that is associated with American military and border policies.
There are people in Australia who don't understand what the hell the Xi administration is doing, and are scared that they are trying to take over the world via property markets and emmigration. Obviously I do not and did not think this, but in realising that China is not attempting to perform expansion for the sake of expansion, or for Xi's arbitrary sense of entitlement to specific territory, one might also realise that Xi, China's government, and Chinese residents with Han ancestry, are not remotely evil but are just trying to ensure the security of a significant proportiom of the Earth's population. Maybe if Trump, Obama, Bush, and Clinton realised this, the Western states would not cease to continue a cold war with China.
tl;dr for supporters of the Chinese state: This video is helping your cause.

我不知道为什么人们坚持要把中国的领土作为国家权利的一部分。这段视频中的解释让我尊重中国国家扩张主义的动机，却不能让我相信中国的统治阶层从根本上是不合理的，因为同美国的军事和边境政策相关的民族主义就是一群精神病。
澳大利亚有些人不明白北京政府到底在做什么，他们害怕北京正试图通过房地产市场和移民来接管世界。显然，我们没有这么干、也没有想到这一点，但只要意识到中国不是为了扩张而扩张，也不是因为北京对特定领土的任意权利感，人们可能还会意识到，中国政府和中国汉族居民并不邪恶，只是试图确保地球人口比例能维持在安全范畴。也许，如果特朗普、奥巴马、布什和克林顿也意识到这一点的话，西方各州就不会与中国的支持者们继续冷战了：
这段视频有助于你们的事业。

Pohorex
China (mainland) and China (Taiwan) both claim themselves as China. So they don’t recognize each other. The communists don’t want to recognize the government in Taiwan while it goes the other way too. Neither control the other de facto, but they do de jurely. This implies why they aren’t on the maps. The US controls Hawaii and Alaska directly, no questions asked (though I don’t know why you added Texas with those two).

中国（大陆）和中国（台湾）都声称自己是中国。所以他们不承认对方。北京不想承认台湾政府，反之则亦然。事实上，他们既不能控制对方，也不受对方控制。这意味着他们不能在地图上共存。美国直接控制夏威夷和阿拉斯加，没有人提出任何异议（尽管我不知道为什么你要把德克萨斯和那两个国家放在一起比较）。

Director Lunchie
western media propaganda, US funded

西方媒体宣传，美国资助

Fye Sacriel
The guy stated facts without political bias. I'm sorry if you can't take a history and geography lesson?
        
这家伙毫无政治偏见地在陈述事实。如果你没上过历史课和地理课，我只能说很抱歉

Director Lunchie
Fye: Are you kidding me? it's 1000000% political bias, a video made by an absolute American who's never traveled to the EAST before.... Typical American SB.

上面的，你在开玩笑么？这百分之一百万的是政治偏见，一个绝对是美国人制作的视频，他以前从未去过东方，典型的美国SB。

roven 08
A lot of rubbish in this video for the sake of making a video and getting view$.  Anyone from Asia will laugh at the idea of China needing protection from India's military. hahaha. White people

这段视频里有很多垃圾，为了美金而拍的一段视频。亚洲随便什么人都会嘲笑“中国需要印度军队保护”这种观点。哈哈，这就是白人啊

iii
China and Russia are "friends" the way Brazil and Argentina are "friends"

中国和俄罗斯是“朋友”，巴西和阿根廷是“朋友”。

Thomas Zhang
Why does ethnicity have to do with whether China can rule Tibet? the US rules Hawaii because they are of same ethnicity?
        
为什么XZ是否隶属于能和种族扯上关系？美国统治夏威夷是因为他们是同一民族？

Gunther Ultrabolt Novacrunch
Funny, because after watching this video... I'm convinced China has awesome geography.

有趣，因为在看完这段视频之后.。我确信中国有着非常棒的地理位置

Jinpeng Chen
“Only for three hundred years”, I think that is longer than the history of United States.

“只有三百年”，我记得这可比美国的历史还要长。

Christina lei
The United States barely been in America for 300 years. Back then it was the natives' land.

美国在美洲也就不到三百年，在那之前这是印第安的土地

irishfella1000
how about the millions of your own people the communist government slaughtered or starved to death? Maybe check your own back yard before criticizing others.

GC主义政府屠杀或饿死的数百万人民怎么说？也许在批评别人之前，先检查一下自己的后院。

limb bizkret

No, back then it was British, French, and Spanish land. The Natives just lived on that land.

不，在那之前是英国，法国和西班牙的土地。印第安人只是住在上面。

Electrix
nyannyan Americans owned slaves, but that wasn’t an American issue, that was a world issue, as for Native Americans, that wasn’t an American thing, European nations were the ones who did the most killing of the natives, and even then the Natives weren’t innocent, they enslaved and went to war with other tribes, if they had the technology they’d have colonised Europe

回nyannyan，美国人拥有奴隶，但这不是美国的问题，这是一个世界问题，对美洲土着人来说，这不是美国人的问题，欧洲国家才是杀害印第安人最多的，即使这样，印第安人也不是无辜的，他们奴役其他部落，与其他部落交战，如果他们有技术的话，他们也会把欧洲 殖民化。

Shane Tonkin
Why do imbeciles always randomly bring up something America once did as if it somehow excuses anything. If somebody stole my nieghbours car last week does that mean you shouldnt be pissed off when I steel yours tomorrow?

为什么提起美国曾经做过的事情时，总有蠢货出来找个啥借口来为美国辩护。如果上周有人偷了我邻居的车，那是不是意味着明天我把你的车拿来炼钢你也不应该生气？

Scott Mayfield
nice try, the US never had a one child policy, China's demographics are collapsing cause of that, China is getting older very fast,

很好的尝试，美国从来没有过独生子女政策，中国的人口结构正在崩溃，中国的老龄化正变得越来越快。

Anvil Gattuso
Scott Mayfield Why can't you guys be objective on such matters? Where's your critical thinking? Do you know why there was a Great Leap Forward and why it failed? Do you know why MAO wanted a cultural revolution and how it lost control? Do you know how many people would die of poverty and starvation if birth rate was not controlled? Do you know most babies would die soon after their birth bcz of lack of medicine and proper care at that time? Do you know that China was merely a poor agricultural nation when MAO seized power, while facing Soviet Union on the north front? Do you know who was MAO against? Do you know why CCP can beat KMT? No, you are only saying what you learn from some biased sources.

Scott Mayfield，你们为什么不能在这些问题上保持客观呢？你的批判性思维呢？你知道为什么会有大跃进吗？为什么失败？你知道毛为什么想要一场文化大革命吗？它是如何失控的？如果不控制出生率，你知道有多少人会死于贫穷和饥饿？你知道大多数婴儿出生后不久就会死亡吗？你知道毛泽东掌权时，中国只是一个贫穷的农业国吗？在北面面对苏联，你知道吗？你知道毛反对谁吗？你知道为什么T·G能打败国民党吗？不，你只知道从带着偏见的信息中学到的东西。

Anvil Gattuso
Scott Mayfield I wonder why are you still defending the US government which can't represent the average American people. Go google how rich US senators are compared to average Americans. It's funny that you people will defend a government who is making the rich richer and the poor poorer while taxing less and less on the rich

Scott Mayfield我不知道你为什么还在为美国政府辩护，因为美国政府不能代表普通的美国人民。我们来看看美国参议员与普通美国人相比有多富有。有意思的是，你们会捍卫一个让富人更富，穷人更穷的政府，同时他们对富人 征收越来越少的税。

NoThrottle 2
+Anvil Gattuso Compare your government. Bieng rich does not mean you are bad as a person. 

楼上，比起你的政府来说，有钱可不代表就是坏人

Anvil Gattuso
NoThrottle 2 I don't think Chinese government is "my" government. 
As far as I know, the richer tend to make more money than the poorer. That's why the few magnates own most wealth in your (and nearly every) country while their wealth grows far faster than others'. I don't think the US or any other governments have done enough to stop that tendency. What's worse, the children of the rich families are more likely to get high quality education and to earn more money with support of their family, compared to their poorer peers. It would take you much more effort and sacrifice to achieve the same goal as your richer friends (if it's ever possible), all because you were not luckily born into a good family. Do you think it's fair? Being rich is not evil, but the logic for being rich makes me sick.
我不认为中国政府是“我的”政府。据我所知，富人往往比穷人赚更多的钱。这就是为什么少数巨头在你们(几乎每个)国家拥有最多的财富，而他们的财富却比其他国家增长得快得多。我不认为美国或任何其他国家的政府已经采取了足够的措施来阻止这种趋势。更糟糕的是，与贫穷的同龄人相比，富裕家庭的孩子更有可能获得高质量的教育，并在家庭的支持下赚更多的钱。如果有可能的话，你需要付出更多的努力和牺牲才能达到和你富有的朋友一样的目标，这一切都是因为你不幸地没有出生在一个好家庭中。你觉得公平吗？富有并不是邪恶的，但这种致富的逻辑让我感到恶心。

NoThrottle 2
Anvil Gattuso, so basically "low-key" communism? I don't care about the median income of the US since I do not live there. Equality in money does not mean greater success in society. Equal persuasion on each individual is impossible. Their family background may have an affect on their lives but that is life, you don't get everything for free and you need to work hard to reach your goals. Life won't have any meaning if everything is given to us at our own will.

Anvil Gattuso所以基本上是“低调”GC主义？我不在乎美国的中等收入，因为我不住在那里。金钱上的平等并不意味着在社会上能取得更大的成功。想要说服每个人平等是不可能的。他们的家庭背景可能会对他们的生活产生影响，但那就是生活，你不能免费得到所有的东西，你需要努力工作才能达到你的目标。如果一切都是别人自愿给予的，那么生命就没有任何意义。

Anvil Gattuso
NoThrottle 2 That's where we disagree. It's not communism that I want though.

NoThrottle 2这就是我们看法不同的地方。但是，我并不想要GC主义

Betulya Karol
Nope! The Spaniards colonized the Americans before the USA was a thing. The Europeans also brought deadly diseases with them, which killed off the native populations, meaning that Spaniards held hegemony over this land.

不！西班牙人在美国成为殖民者之前就把美国人殖民化了。欧洲人也带来了致命的疾病，杀死了当地居民，这意味着西班牙人在这片土地上拥有霸权。

Fye Sacriel
THAT'S what you got from the video? You were literally handed a geography lesson and you're making it into a political statement? Pathetic.

这就是你从视频学到的？你真的学过地理么，你把这玩意变成了政治声明？可悲

Private Joker
Hey, dumb bitch, the United Sates has always been in North America. This isn't lost, stupid fuck. Also, you dumb fuck Chinese got your worthless asses kicked by Japan. 20,000,000 dead. China was LUCKY Japan attacked the US.

嘿，贱货，美国一直存在于北美州。别把这个搞丢了蠢货。还有，你们这些该死的中国人被日本揍得一塌糊涂。2000万人死亡。中国应该觉得庆幸，日本袭击了美国。

yaojimmy yao
China JUST took over Tibet for 300 years ?  I think 300 years ago the united states was still British colony. So should UK take over US?

中国刚刚接管XZ300年？我记得300年前美国仍然是英国殖民地。那么英国应该接管美国吗？

Skypad00
Also, it wasn't only 300 years ago that Tibet was a part of China. Tibetans also aren't one ethnicity, they're composed of a variety of people including the Ngoloks, Amdo and Khampas and more. The Yuan Dynasty ruled Tibet, the Tang and Han dynasty also ruled parts of it.

而且，XZ也不仅仅是在300年前才成为中国的一部分。藏族人也不是一个民族，他们是由各种不同的人群组成的，包括Ngoloks人、Amdo人和Khampas人等等。元朝统治XZ，汉唐两朝也统治过XZ的部分地区。

James Chan
So easy for you to say that Tibet wasn't a part of China since 300 years ago, so there is no reason for it to be a part of China now. Excuse me, how many yeas has US been existing?

你们张口就说XZ在300年前不是中国的一部分，所以现在它没有理由成为中国的一部分。那么现在我们来看看美国有多少年？