（下篇）如果有办法确保不会有无辜的人被执行死刑，你会赞成还是反对死刑？为什么？ [美国媒体]

If there was a way to make sure that no innocent person is ever executed, would you be for or against the death penalty? Why?
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如果有办法确保没有无辜的人被执行死刑，你会赞成还是反对死刑？为什么？



注：最近一直在看邢侦案件的纪录片，弹幕里对于凶手是否应该判死刑或者当凶手没有被判死刑时总是会有很大的争议，所以我也想看看外国人是这么看这个问题的。于是打开Reddit，输入关键词，发现最近正好有一篇争论死刑的帖子，而且看来他们的分歧也很大，回帖足足有4000多条，一起来看看他们都说了些什么吧。

robolew
Because the death penalty is used as more of a political statement than a tool to make society better

因为死刑更多地被用作一种政治声明，而不是一种让社会变得更好的工具。

Bisbane
If you walked outside and killed a random person right now 99% chance you wouldn't get the death penalty. You would though if you killed a cop or a kid or if you killed that person during the commission of another crime (robbery, rape, arson, murder). That's the gist of it in Texas anyways.

如果你现在走出去，随机杀死一个路人，那你99%不会被判死刑。不过，如果你杀了一个警察或一个孩子，或者你在另一次犯罪(抢劫、强奸、纵火、谋杀)中杀死了某个人，你就会被判。不管怎么说，这就是德克萨斯州的主旨。

smgiese
Did you know that the death penalty actually costs the state more than giving a life sentence? https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty The problem lies with the lengthy appeals process, which results in vastly increased court costs for the state. In addition, during this lengthy appeals process, we usually keep these prisoners in higher security "death rows", which lead to further increased costs. Obviously, in this theoretical scenario where we have 100% certainty on guilt, this is less of an issue. In real life, this is a common misconception that the death penalty is cheaper. It is not.

你知道死刑比判无期徒刑更让国家付出更多的代价吗？问题在于上诉过程冗长，导致政府的法庭费用大幅增加。此外，在这个漫长的上诉过程中，我们通常把这些囚犯关在更安全的“死囚牢房”中，从而导致费用进一步增加。很明显，在这个假设的场景中，我们对罪人有罪有百分之百的把握，所以这就不是什么问题了。但现实生活中，这是一种常见的误解，即死刑更便宜。不是的。

LeJeuDuProchainTrain
Upvote. No one seems to know this. Death penalty is wayyy more expensive than life without parole.

好评。似乎没人知道这个。死刑比终身监禁更昂贵。

Rules_are_for_fools
That's because there is a huge appeals process in place, and lawyers, judges, and prison are all expensive. In the hypothetical question asked by OP there's a magical system that is never wrong, so we don't need any of the currently expensive stuff. A person could be found guilty in the morning and be dead before lunch.

这是因为有一个繁杂的上诉程序，律师，法官，和监狱都是昂贵的。在帖主提出的假设问题中，有一个神奇的永远不会出错的体系，所以我们不需要任何这些昂贵的东西。一个人可能会在早上被判有罪，在午餐前就处决了。

LeJeuDuProchainTrain
I didn't realize the thread was implying a magical system. But my comment was directed toward the many people using cost as a reason for their beliefs. Believe what you want, but it's always best to know the facts.
And aside from that I'm still strongly against the death penalty in any context. Life without prison could easily be argued to be cruel and even torture, but to me executing someone crosses a line. It's motivated by emotions, vengeance. Our society and legal system should not stoop to the level of the criminal, and it shouldn't bend for our emotions.

我没有注意这个帖子有提到有这么一个神奇的系统。但我的评论是针对许多人，他们以成本作为他们信仰死刑的理由。相信你想要的，但也要了解一下事实。
除此之外，我仍然强烈反对任何情况下的死刑。没有监狱的生活很容易被认为是残忍甚至是酷刑，但对我来说，处决某人是越界的。它是由情感和复仇所驱动的。我们的社会和法律体系不应堕落到罪犯的水平，也不应该屈服于我们的情感。

shrubs311
It's motivated by emotions, vengeance.
I can see a world in which it's not though. There is a person who rapes and murders children, he is in jail for life without parole. He has accepted his death, and he clearly will not reform. The prison system can spend money and resources keeping him alive until he dies naturally. A vigilante kills him in prison. This saves the prison resources and money, which they can use to rehabilitate other people.
The death penalty is expensive because of appeals processes and lawyers and such, but killing someone just takes a tank of gas and a mask. If people choose not to reform or otherwise aren't reforming, they're a drain on society and making it harder to help people who want it.

“它是由情感和复仇所驱动的。”
我可以看到一个并非如此的世界。有一个人强奸和谋杀儿童，他被判终身监禁，不得假释。他已经接受了他的死亡，并且他显然不会洗心革面。监狱系统可以花费金钱和资源来维持他的生命直到他自然死亡。也可以由一名警官将他杀死，节省监狱的资源和资金，他们可以用来改造其他人。
死刑的代价很高，这是因为上诉程序和律师等等，但杀人只需要一罐毒气和面具。如果那些人选择不改变，那他们是对社会资源的消耗，使帮助那些想要洗心革面的人变得更加困难。

undercooked_lasagna
Everyone knows this because it's repeated in literally every single debate about the death penalty, even though it's a really disingenuous argument.

每个人都知道这一点，因为在每一场有关死刑的辩论中都重复了这一说法，尽管这是一个非常虚伪的论点（注：就是死刑比终身监禁更贵）。

xyop
In the US*. The US system is very slow with lots of appeals etc.
Plenty of other countries have death penalties which are carried out fairly swiftly, with less appeal etc and it's definitely cheaper for many of them than keeping people imprisoned.
I know reddit often forgets this site isn't only Americans talking about America but the death penalty doesn't have to be more expensive. It is in the US, and it's probably better when it is that way because it gives more chance for wrongly convicted people to successfully appeal, but it doesn't have to be especially in this fantasy scenario where no innocent person will ever be executed.

在美国（重点）。美国的制度非常缓慢，有很多上诉程序等等。
许多其他国家的死刑执行得相当迅速，上诉也较少，而且对许多国家来说，死刑肯定比监禁更便宜。我知道Reddit经常忘记这个网站不仅仅是美国人在谈论美国，而且死刑也不一定会更昂贵。至于在美国，如果是这样的话可能会更好，因为它给了被错误定罪的人更多的成功上诉的机会，但在这种幻想的场景中没有无辜的人会被处决。

Jumaai
Making death penalty proceedings as hard and expensive as possible was one of the main strategies of the anti death penalty movement. At the same time as they were lobbying for laws, they were also pouring tons of money into setting precedents.
Now they argue that death penalty is financially illogical, after they have made it to be.

使死刑诉讼尽可能困难和昂贵是反死刑运动的主要战略之一。在他们为法律游说的同时，他们也投入了大量的资金来建立先例。
现在他们当然认为死刑在经济上是不合逻辑的。

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KingofSnipers
Eh let’s face it. I wouldn’t mind sentencing some pedophiles to death penalty. I know, unpopular opinion but if you touched kids then there’s literally no redemption from that.

呃，让我们面对现实吧。我不介意判一些恋童癖死刑。我知道，这是个不受欢迎的观点，但如果你碰了孩子，那就根本没有救赎的余地了。

Peacemaker_58
You're in college. A 22 year old. You meet a girl at a college party. She had a drink in her hand so you assumed she's 21. She told you she was 18. You hooked up. Turns out shes 14. She certainly looked like she could have been 18. She definitely told ypu she was 18. Technically you just raped a child. But did you? Are you a pedophile?
So there are some instances where I wouldn't think it is deserved, but the people who molest 5 year olds and shit, yeah they can die.

假设你22岁，在上大学。你在大学派对上遇见了一个女孩。她手里拿着一杯饮料，所以你以为她21岁了。她告诉你她18岁了。你俩就勾搭上了。但结果她才14岁。她看起来应该是18岁了。她也肯定地告诉过你她18岁了。但严格来说你刚刚强奸了一个孩子。不是吗？那么你是恋童癖吗？
所以在某些情况下，我认为这是不应该的，但是那些骚扰5岁孩子的人，是的，他们应该被判死刑。

magikarpcandosplash
That's not pedophilia, that's statutory rape. A pedophilia is a main attraction towards children. That is, a person is more attracted to children than to adults. If someone is attracted to adults, but had sex with a child despite their sexual preference, it's not pedophilia.
This is the same reason why bestiality =/= zoophilia. Action does not necessarily signify a paraphilia diagnosis.

那不是恋童癖，那是法定的强奸。对恋童癖而言，“儿童”是主要吸引力。也就是说，一个人，孩子对他的吸引力比成年人的吸引力大。如果某人被成年人吸引，尽管因为性偏好和一个孩子发生了性关系，这也不能说是恋童癖。
这也是为什么人兽性行为=/=嗜兽癖的原因。行动不一定意味着解释性诊断。

Peacemaker_58
But you fucked a 14 year old.

但你上了一个14岁的孩子。

Freeiheit
Pedophilia: sexual desire in an adult for a child.
Pedophilia is the attraction to children. If you legitimately mistook the 14 year old for someone of-age, and she actually looked like she was of age, that doesn't count as being attracted to children.

恋童癖：成人对孩子的性欲。
恋童癖对儿童感到沉迷。如果你合法地把14岁的人误认为是个年纪大的人，而她看起来像也像是这个年纪的人，那就不算被儿童吸引了。

Peacemaker_58
Ah, I guess I thought there was a pedophile aspect to crimes committed with younger people, so a legal difference not just an attraction difference.

啊哈，我想我认为那里会对年轻人犯下的犯罪行为都认定为恋童癖，所以法律上的差异不只是吸引力的差异。

Freeiheit
It depends on the jurisdiction, but actual pedophiles wouldn't even be attracted to a 14 year old girl if she looked like she was of age; they're only attracted to ore pubescent children. That's why they're pedophiles

这取决于司法管辖权，但真正的恋童癖者甚至不会被一个14岁的女孩所吸引，如果她看起来像一个年纪大的女孩的话；他们只会被青春期的孩子吸引。所以他们才是恋童癖。

xoites
Against.
Knew a convicted murderer who spent twenty years in prison and spent the rest of his life running a homeless shelter. Nicest guy I ever met.
We are all capable of horrible actions, but we are all capable of changing our lives. Can't become a better person if you are dead.

反对。
我知道一名被判有罪的凶手，他在狱中度过了二十年，终其一生都在经营一个给无家可归的人的庇护所。他我见过的最好的人。
我们都有能力做可怕的事情，但我们都有能力改变我们的生活。如果你死了，就不能成为更好的人。

Dr-Absurd
It's enlightening to know that some convicted murderers actually redeemed themselves in the end. I have always thought they all remain the same cuz all assholes in my life are still asshole and arguably worse as they get older.

知道一些被判有罪的杀人犯最终会自我救赎，这很有启发性。我一直认为他们都是不会变的，因为在我的生活中，所有的混蛋都一直是混蛋，而且随着年龄的增长，情况可能会更糟。

Swinepits
Maybe he used the shelter as a front for his hobo murder dungeon.

也许他把庇护所用作他谋杀流浪汉的幌子。

ZypherMyth
Not all murderers as psychopathic serial killers. Some have treatable mental illness. Many more were forced into criminal actions because of their economic situation or the environment they were stuck in (i.e. poverty breeds crime, gang violence, etc.).
It doesn't justify their actions but it means they committed their crimes for a reason - not just because they found "joy" in killing.

不是所有的杀人犯都是变态连环杀手。有些人患有可治疗的精神疾病。更多的人因经济状况或所处的环境而被迫采取犯罪行动(即贫困滋生犯罪、帮派暴力等)。
这并不能为他们的行为辩护，但这意味着他们犯罪是有原因的-不仅仅是因为他们在杀人中找到了“快乐”。

superdago
Murder has one of the lowest recidivism rates. Most instances of killing someone were brought about by a very specific set of circumstances that don't readily repeat themselves.

谋杀的再犯率是最低的。大多数杀人事件都是由一组非常具体的情况造成的，而这些情况并不容易重演。

ReadingIsRadical
This is by far the best account of a murderer turning his life around I've ever seen. It's rare, but some people do it. This guy killed a kid with a chisel just to watch him die, and ended up working in a hospital, writing a field guide to Puerto Rican birds, and trying to start a foundation to stop any children from making the same mistakes he had.
This story in particular is a big reason I can't ever get behind the death penalty. People really can change, even if they usually don't.

这是迄今为止我见过的一个杀人犯改变生活的最好的叙述。很少见，但有些人会这么做。有个家伙用凿子杀死了一个孩子，只是为了看着他死去，最后他在医院工作，写了一本波多黎各鸟类野外指南，并试图建立一个基金会来阻止任何儿童去犯同样的错误。
特别是这个故事，是我永远无法支持死刑的一个重要原因。人们真的可以改变，即使他们通常不会。

marry_me_sarah_palin
Like when they executed Tookie. There wasn't a question about his guilt, but he had reformed himself in prison, and was trying to be an advocate for non-violence, and teaching the inner city youth not to follow his path. He could have lived out his years in prison helping society, while also being punished for his crime. I don't get what our society gained by executing him.

就像他们处决图奇那样。没有人质疑他犯下的罪行，但他在狱中改过自新，试图成为非暴力的倡导者，并教导市中心的年轻人不要走他的路。他本可以在监狱里度过他的岁月，帮助社会，同时也为他的罪行而受到惩罚。我不知道通过处决他我们的社会得到了什么好处。
（注：此人被阿诺施瓦辛格当州长时亲自驳回了撤销死刑的请求，被执行注射死刑）

M_Night_Shamylan
Governor Schwarzenegger at the time put it very succinctly, by saying it's impossible to claim he was redeemed while also claiming he was innocent.
Tookie Williams adamantly claimed he was innocent until the end, refusing to take responsibility for his actions when the evidence showed overwhelmingly that he was guilty. He said he would not and should not apologize for his actions.
You cant deny you took part in a crime that you obviously did and still claim to be redeemed.

当时的州长施瓦辛格非常简洁地说，他（图奇）不可能在声称自己无罪的同时，声称自己得到了救赎。
图奇·威廉姆斯一直坚称自己是无辜的，当证据显示他有罪时，他拒绝为自己的行为承担责任。他说他不会也不应该为自己的行为道歉。
你不能在否认你参与了一场明显的犯罪的同时，又声称自己被救赎了。

metallica3790
Vengeance is a hell of a drug. Some people feel like death is what is deserved.

复仇是一种非常可怕的毒品。有些人觉得死亡是他们罪有应得的。

gigglefarting
My Father-in-law's sister was raped and murdered when she was a teenager. When the man who committed the crime got out of prison, he did it again. Sure, he couldn't become a better person if he was dead, but there would a person who is better than him that would still be living if he died the first time in prison.

我岳父的妹妹在她十几岁的时候就被强奸和谋杀了。当犯罪的人出狱时，他又犯了一次。当然，如果他死了，他就不能成为一个更好的人了，但是，如果他第一次就死在监狱里，就会有一个比他更好的人好好地活着。

pics-or-didnt-happen
Can't become a better person if you are dead.
The victim never got that chance. Why should their killer?

“如果你死了，就不能成为更好的人。”
受害者已经失去了这样的机会。凶手凭什么拥有？

ben_howler
I'd be "pro choice". I don't think, we should murder anyone, for any reason. But if the perp himself chooses death over a long/life sentence, I'd grant them their wish.

我会让他们“自主选择”。我不认为我们应该以任何理由谋杀任何人。但如果罪犯自己选择了死刑而不是无期徒刑，我会满足他们的愿望。