为什么中国没有科学 [美国媒体]

-------------译者：龙腾翻译总管-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------



Why China Has No Science "because according to her own standard of value she does not need any." Published 1922

为什么中国没有科学，“因为按自身的价值标准来看，她不需要任何科技。”出版于1922年。


-------------译者：penender123-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

译注：以下讨论基于一篇1922年4月发表于国际伦理学杂志（THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF ETHICS）的文章。作者冯友兰(YU-LAN FUNG). 

americarthegreat[S] 
I thought it was a particularly interesting discussion -- it illustrates that in the past that China wasn't just going to meet Western expectations it had its own set of expectations.

我认为这是一篇特别有趣的讨论 -- 它阐述了过去的中国并不去刻意满足西方的期望，而是有自己的期望。

China didn't have science because China didn't see the merit of science. What the fuck good is a machine if that machine doesn't help a son be loyal to his father?

中国没有科学，是因为中国没有看到科学的价值。 如果一台机器不能让一个儿子对他的父亲恪守孝道，那这台TMD机器有什么用？

And this I think helps us understand our relationship with China in the present -- China just isn't going to view democracy or even human rights as a positive their expectations are entirely different. What the fuck good is human rights when it just gets in the way of the national unity of Tibet and Xinjiang with China? What good is democracy when China can undergo the Great Chinese Rejuvenation without it? It doesn't matter if I think this is a shortsighted view of the world. I have different values and expectations than the Chinese do and I can't sell these ideas to them if they don't give a rats ass about the selling points.

我认为这个观点有助于我们了解我们现在与中国的关系 - 中国就是不认为民主甚至人权是积极正面的，他们的期望（与我们相比）是完全不同的。 如果人权成为了中国国家统一的阻碍，这TMD人权有什么用？如果没有民主，中国也可以达成中华民族的伟大复兴，那么民主有什么好处？ 即使我认为这是一种目光短浅的世界观，也无关紧要。 我有不同于中国人的价值观和期望，如果他们丝毫不关心我的观点， 我的想法就无法影响到他们。

catmeow321 
China was in a middle of civil war right and fresh from revolution?

当时（1922年）中国还在内战之中，革命刚刚结束是吗？

 -------------译者：15751001581-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Smirth 
If you live in Beijing as a laowai you get to visit the forbidden city a lot. i think i have been ten times which is not particularly high. i have a buddy who has done the great wall fifty times.
but when you visit it a lot you see the side exhibitions such as the clock exhibition. and you see all these brit/euro mechanical clocks and you have to think - as the ruler of china this is a pretty cool gift!
but it does not necessarily convince you that science is going to do anything useful. so you go back to fucking concubines putting down warlords enjoying some really good tea whatever.
and then suddenly ... steam engines metal ships automatic weapons.... the whole tech tree you ignored turns out to transform the world. you are struggling to deal with natural disasters or famine and the rest of the world has powered flight radar computers encryption etc. but you still think you are relevant because you can march a million soldiers into korea. maybe not vietnam but you win some you lose some.
so you build your entire economy on scale of workforce.
and then.... “America is researching automated production”.
tune in for the outcome in 2020!

如果你是一个住在北京的老外，你有许多机会去参观紫禁城。我觉得我已经去过不下十次了，不是特别的多。我有个朋友参观过长城五十次了
但是当你参观过很多次时，你会看到一些诸如钟展的展览会。看到所有这些英国/欧洲的机械钟，你忍不住会想——作为一位统治中国的帝王，这是一个非常酷的礼物！
但这并不能使你信服科学会（给国家）带来益处。所以你就接着继续宠宠你的小妾，放下有关军阀的问题，享受一些非常好的茶什么的。
然后突然间...蒸汽机、金属船舶、自动武器....那些被你忽略掉的科技突然就传遍了整个世界。你正在努力应对自然灾害或饥荒问题，与此同时世界上的其他国家已经拥有了动力飞机、雷达、计算机和加密技术等。但你仍然认为你是与之有关的，因为你可以派一百万士兵前往朝鲜。也许不是越南，但你也有失有得。
所以你用大规模的劳动力建立了整个经济。
然后....“美国正在研究自动化生产”。
结果就在2020年出现！

-------------译者：龙腾翻译总管-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

americarthegreat[S]
If you actually read the paper which was written by a renowned Chinese philosopher you'd actually see that it argues this from a historical point and largely due to philosophical underpinnings of Chinese society up until modern China. The paper is subtitled "An Interpretation of the History and Consequences of Chinese Philosophy".

如果你真的读了这篇由中国着名哲学家（冯友兰）着作的论文，事实上你能清楚地看出它是从历史的角度来论证这一观点的，且很大程度上是基于中国社会一直到现代中国的的哲学基础演变（史）。文章的副标题是“对中国哲学的历史及其后果的一种解释”。

To summarize his conclusion modern Western philosophical underpinnings are quite concerned with utility and human welfare is determined materialistically. He juxtaposes this against earlier European times where human welfare was determined by piety. In turn at one point in China's past yeah they were more interested in utility but modern China (at the time talking largely of the 1800s up until that revolution) human welfare was determined by adherence to Confucian principles (e.g. familial piety obedience to the state the state living up to its responsibilities to the people etc.).

总结他的结论得出，现代西方的哲学基础非常注重实用性，和人类的福祉是由物质决定的。他把这个（观念）与早期欧洲时代中人类的福祉是由虔诚（宗教）决定的观念进行对比。反之，在中国过去的某个时期他们更注重实用性，但是在现代中国时期（当时很大程度是指19世纪到那场革命的期间）儒家伦理指出人类的福祉是由尊卑等级决定的。（例如：长幼有序、效忠国家和国家对其子民负责等等）。

China didn't have science because China didn't see the merit of science. What the fuck good is a machine if that machine doesn't help a son be loyal to his father?

中国没有科学是因为中国没有看到科学的价值。如果一台机器不能让一个儿子对他的父亲恪守孝道，那要这机器有何用？

The author does seem to be of the opinion that these expectations eventually failed China (albeit not in vain he seems to view those expectations with some positivity but I would hazard a guess he ultimately felt those prior expectations were imbalanced not necessarily wrong) thus necessitating change (after all this guy was initially a supporter of the Chinese communists).

作者似乎认为这些期望最终导致中国的落后（这并不是徒劳的，他似乎认为这些期望具有积极性，但我大胆猜测他最后会觉得之前的那些期望是失衡的，但不一定是错的），因此迫切需要改变（毕竟他最初是中国共产党的拥护者）。

-------------译者：gdttn-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

JillyPollaTaiwan 
What the fuck good is a machine if that machine doesn't help a son be loyal to his father?
The problem I have with this is that China did have machines and used them extensively. They had things like looms and agricultural implements which were basically predecessor of industrial machinaries. Chinese didn't have problems using machines. What's more filial than producing a lot and making lots of money so that your parents could live a comfortable life?

“ 如果一台机器不能让一个儿子对他的父亲恪守孝道，那这台TMD机器有什么用？”
对此我的问题是，中国确实有机器(工业机械前身的织机和农具)并且被广泛使用。中国人在机器使用上并没有问题。大量生产赚很多钱让你的父母可以过上舒适的生活难道不更是孝顺（父母）吗？

nikatnightUnited States 
You put a hole lot of weight on various folks complaining about real annoyances in China. People don't often get on and say racists things they say things they've seen and experienced.

你着重于人们对实打实存在于中国的烦扰之事的抱怨。人们不会经常提及种族主义的事情，他们说的都是他们亲眼看到和经历过的事情。

dazzazhonggua
People don't like the government or some of the things they see in China. Boo fucking hoo.

人们不喜欢中国政府也不喜欢他们在中国看到的事物。（结尾脏话）

LusciousLothario
Ok sorry I forgot. Won't happen again.

好吧，对不起，我忘了。不会再发生了。

-------------译者：penender123-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

XitlerDadaJinpingTaiwan  
网友 XitlerDadaJinpingTaiwan  

So it's settled China has no science! Woo hoo!
r/china we did it again!

所以结论就是中国没有科学！万岁！
（红迪网的）中国吧，我们又故技重施了！

marmakoide （回复XitlerDadaJinpingTaiwan）
Did you even read the article ? 1922 by Yu Lan Fung aka Feng Youlan. He studied abroad and as a philosopher he asked the question why the science & enlightenment movement in Europe did not happen in China. You didn't need to read the whole thing the article is well written and the author summarize this in the first few paragraphs. That kind of questioning was a big thing back then amongst Chinese intellectual to understand how the hell they went from local superpower to being bullied by a bunch of supposedly barbarians.

你到底读这篇1922年由Yu Lan Fung （即冯友兰）着作的文章了没有？ 他曾出国留学过，作为一名哲学家，他提出了这个问题，即为什么发生在欧洲的科学与启蒙运动并没有在中国发生。你不需要阅读全文。 这篇文章写得很好，而且笔者在前几段就总结了这一点。（他当时提出的）这个疑问，即中国如何从本地的超级大国变成被一群蛮夷欺凌（的弱国），这在当时成为中国知识分子中的一个大课题。

ting_bu_dongUnited States  (回复marmakoide）
"He studied abroad"
See there's your problem right there.
（引用marmakoide）“他曾出国留学过......”

看吧，这（译注：出国留学）正是你的问题所在。

nincludEuropean unx 
Scamming and cheating are a Chinese science! It's even more than that it's an art!

抄袭和欺骗是才是中国的科学！ 比科学还强，简直是艺术！