为什么中国不能逆向工程俄罗斯苏35战机的发动机 [美国媒体]

Why can't China reverse engineer and copy the jet engine of Russia's Su 35

为什么中国不能逆向工程俄罗斯苏35战机的发动机



Harvey King, born in Taiwan, grew up in US, family rooted in mainland China for centuries.
Contrary to what many believed, China, even today, is severe behind in terms of technological know how.
The area which China lacks behind the most is fundamental sciences: physics, mathematics, chemistry , MATERIAL SCIENCES, fluid mechanics, etc.
One big part of jet engine is the metal used in the engine. US is by far most advanced in this department.
Another area China is lacking is simply the fundamental industrial base to produce precision parts consistently. And Jet Engine requires a such inhuman level of precision, that China still struggles to achieve. Big part of having such industrial base are accumulation of experiences, and China, considered how late it came to the game, is catching up beyond anyone’s expectation.
But most of elite still understand that China still have a long long way to go.

与许多人的认知相反的是，中国甚至到了今天技术技巧也严重落后。在这个领域中国落后的原因是缺乏基础科技：物理、数学、化学、材料科学、流体力学等等。
发动机最重要的就是金属材料，美国在这方面遥遥领先。

另一方面中国缺乏的是能持续生产精确部件的基础工业基地。而发动机却要求一种极度的精确，中国仍然在为之努力。这种工业基地主要是不断积累的结果，而中国游戏参与得晚了，目前处于追赶超越的阶段。
但是大多数精英还是明白中国还有很长的路要走。
  回复

Wen Ling。
Dec 27, 2016
To some degree it is true. The catch-up game always lacks some foundation on basic science.
It will take a generation or two to be on par with American/British. But it is achievable, as long as government still put 20% budget on education as now. It is just matter of time and dedication consistently. CPC has patience.
The biggest advantage is China is its huge, single market, which can cultivate any industry.

某种程度上是这样的。追赶的路上总是缺少基础科学方面的一些基础。
这将会花费一到两代人的时间才能赶上英美的水平。但是这可以实现的，只要政府保持现在这样将20%的预算花在教育上。这一贯只是时间和奉献的问题。GCD有耐心。
中国最大的优势就是它巨大的单一市场，可以培养任何行业。

Angus M Robinson
Feb 5, 2017 · 1 upvote
Harvey, with respect your opinion about Chinese industry capability and expertise in fundamental sciences is somewhat outdated. For example, China is moving quickly to become a world leader in additive manufacturing. I also don’t believe that your assertion that ‘China is lacking the fundamental industrial base to produce precision parts consistently’ is in fact correct. It is often forgotten that Taiwanese, US and German firms have strong links in China and share technological capability platforms.

Harvey，你对中国工业能力和基础科学的认识已经有点过时了。举个例子，中国在增材制造方面正迅速成为世界的领导者。我也不同意你声称的“中国缺乏能够持续生产精密部件的工业基地”符合事实。人们常常忘记台湾、美国和德国公司在中国的紧密联系还有共享技术能力的平台。

Lin Xieyi, Aviation Enthusiast
The picture above shows the Russian Yak-141 TVC Nozzle. In the 1990's, the United States brought its TVC technology and used it on F-35. While China brought it's R79-v300 engine technology and used it on WS-15.
US and Chinese jet engine design were heavily influenced by the R79–V300(206 kN engine used for the Yak 141). The R79–300 was referenced by the US to become the P&W F119 and F135, while it became the WS-10 and WS-15 in China. It is certainly not a bolt to nut copy because it will be impossible to do so, without a certain level of critical tech-knowhow and mature industries, which is why only the UNSC big 5 can produce jet engines with TWR> 8 and only the US, Russia and China can produce turbofan jet engine with TWR>10.[1]
Now let us take a look from another angle of this Sino-Russo deal which has been much hyped in the media.





上图显示了俄罗斯的雅克141的TVC喷管。在1990年代，美国购买了俄罗斯的TVC技术并将之应用在F35上。而中国则购买了R79-v300引擎技术并将之应用在WS-15上。
美国和中国的战机引擎受到了R79-V300（雅克141使用的206千牛的发动机）的重大影响。



R79-300的技术被美国参考，造出了普惠F119和F135，而在中国变成了WS10和WS15。当然不是一个螺栓一个螺母地复制，因为这根本做不到，没有一定水平的关键技术知识和工业能力就做不出来，这也是为什么只有安理会五巨头可以生产推比大于8的发动机，并且只有美国、俄罗斯、中国才能生产推比大于10的涡轮风扇发动机。
现在让我们从另一个角度看待此次媒体上炒得火热的中俄之间的交易。

So.. Why did China procure the 24 SU-35 from Russia?
To complement the insufficient production capability of J-10s and J-11. J-10’s 4 production lines are at full capacity , while J-11 production line has to cope with increasing J-15 and J-16 demand by the Navy and Air Force. The SU-35’s overall capability exceeds the J-10C and J-11D, so by procuring the 4.5Gen SU-35s, it plugs a gap which can only be filled before a sizeable number of 5.0Gen J-20A enter active service, which is a few years away.
SU-35 is a good and affordable 4.5-Gen fighter jet which cost no more than US$80 million per plane, less than the F-15SE/F, 18F/G or Rafale, representing value for money in a market where it is rare to find any good 4–4.5Gen fighter jets costing less than US$100 million.
The SU-35 deal also signify the good and amicable relationship between Russia and China as they bring their cooperation to a strategic partnership level.
The SU-35’s thrust vectoring technology could be analysed to help improve existing and future WS-series indigenous engines.
After so many flip-flop in decision, why did Russia finally decide to export the SU-35?
It is the increasing sophistication of Chinese engines which prompted Russia to approve the deal, because once Chinese aerospace industry achieved the critical breakthrough in enhancing engine lifespan, Russian jet fighter engines will no longer be an appealing option for the Chinese air force. Those who keep saying China cannot produce advanced jet fighter engines is in for a shock soon, as production of the WS-10 series engines hit the high 300s, with the WS-13, 15, 18 ,20 series coming on board soon. Recent aviation news indicates that the J-20 stealth fighter are currently equipped with the 145-kN Taihang WS-10B turbofan, and will be mounted with the 180-kN Ermei WS-15 for test trials as early as next year.
Russia is simply striking while the iron is hot when those fighter jets still have value To China.
update25122016 : The first batch of SU-35 has arrived at Cangzhou.





为什么中国从俄罗斯购买了24架苏35？
为的是补足J10和J11生产能力的缺口。J10的四条生产线满负荷运转。而J11的生产线还要设法满足空军和海军对于J15heJ16的需求。苏35的整体能力超过了J10c和J11D，所以通过购买4.5代的苏35，可以在大量J20服役之前填补缺口，这个时间也没有几年了。
苏35是一架优秀的价格合理的4.5代战机，没加不超过8000万美元，比F15SE/F18F/G和阵风都要便宜，买这个战机很划算，市场上很难找到什么一亿美元以下的好的4到4.5代机。

苏35战机的交易也是中俄友好关系的一种表示，两国将他们的合作提升到了战略伙伴的水平。
苏35的矢量推力技术可以被分析用来促进本土的目前存在的以及未来生产的WS系列发动机。
决策上如此反复之后，为什么俄罗斯最终决定出口苏35？
是日益成熟的中国发动机促使俄罗斯同意了这项交易，因为一旦中国航空工业取得了提高发动机寿命的关键技术的突破，俄罗斯发动机将对于中国空降对于中国空军来说不再是一个有吸引力的选项。这些说中国不能生产先进喷气式战机发动机的人接下来就会震惊的，ws10系列发动机的产量高达300余，同时后面的ws13，15，18，20也很快了。

近期的航空新闻显示，J20隐形战机目前装备了145千牛的太行ws10b涡扇发动机，将来会装备180千牛的峨眉ws15，明年就会进行测试。
俄罗斯只是趁着这些战机对中国还有价值的时候赶紧出手。
更新：2016年12月25日：第一批苏35运抵沧州。

Kelvin Tee
Dec 29, 2016 · 1 upvote
Actually what is the current progress on China's jet engines?
Some say the W10 is already installed and in use while some say that they still experience difficulties with its reliability so the Chinese are still importing Russians engines

到底中国喷气发动机的最新进展到哪一步了?
一些人说ws10早就装机交付使用了，而另一些人说他们仍然在可靠性方面面临着困难，所以中国依然从俄罗斯进口发动机。