中国教育中是否有如英国教育那样的阶级固化及分层吗？ [美国媒体]

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-------------译者：兜兜风ddf-审核者：hht288------------



techolah 于 1 天前 * 发表
In the UK there are private and public schools. The private schools typically have a more rigorous curriculum and the teachers are better qualified.

英国有分私立和公立学校。私立学校通常有更严格的课程设置且师资力量更好。

It's said that this enforces a class system in the UK, that the rich go to private, then go to better Universities, then send their children to private etc etc. ...

据说这使英国（无形中）实施起了一种阶级制度，即富人去私人学校，然后去更好的大学，然后再把他们的孩子送到私人学校等等......

There's certainly some truth to this, but I don't really want to get into a "how to make everything equal for everyone" discussion.

这其中当然有一些是事实，但我并不想开启“如何让所有人都平等”的讨论。

What I'm interested is if people think that there's a greater chance for mobility within Chinese education. It's often said that the Gaokao is a leveller, that no matter whether a person is poor or rich if they do well on the Gaokao they can elevate themselves.

我感兴趣的是，人们是否认为中国教育可以给更多人机会。人们经常说，高考是公平的，不管一个人他是贫穷还是富有，如果在高考上表现良好，他们就改变自身的命运。

The issue that I have with this is that the same thing can be said for A Levels really. If someone is from a poor district in the UK and they do well at their A Levels then they can get into a decent University (sometimes the averages from their school location are taken into account and if they've done significantly better than other then this is factored in). Though I think a UK family having the attitude of elevation through education is probably less likely than a Chinese family.

对此我的问题是我觉得A Levels（(英国大学入学考试的甲级考试）也有相同的效果。如果某人来自英国的一个贫穷地区，但是他们在Alevel表现良好，那么他们可以进入一个体面的大学（有时候他们所在学校的平均值会被考虑在内，且如果他们做得比其他人好得多，那么这个因素会被考虑在内）。尽管我认为一个英国家庭在教育方面的态度上可能不如中国家庭。

So the crux of this question is whether there's a greater chance for Chinese people to "climb the ladder" with the education system that they have. I don't think that comparisons between a farmer in the middle of no-where and someone rich in Shanghai are so meaningful here, even though I understand they're both in the same country and it could be an example of class. Instead - if there are examples of greater differences within the same city, that might be more suitable. For example - one could easily find these kind of examples for a city like London, or most cities in England.
Thanks

所以这个问题的关键在于中国人是否有更大的机会，借助这种教育制度来“提升自己的阶层”。我并不认为，把一个中部省的农民和上海的有钱人放在一起比有意义。尽管我明白他们都在同一个国家，而这可以是个说明阶层的例子。相反——如果是在同一个城市内存在较大差异的例子，那可能会更合适。例如，人们在像伦敦这样的城市或英格兰大部分城市中很容易找到这类例子。谢谢（浏览）。

edit
article（另注：下为相关文章出处）
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/32101124


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–]zhaoshuyang 5 指标 1 天前
In China the competition on academic performance starts from PRIMARY SCHOOL! Before Gaokao, you have to work well on Xuequfang, Xiaoshengchu and Zhongkao! (Good primary school area house, primary->middle exam, middle->high school exam)

在中国，学术表现的竞争从小学就开始了！高考之前，你必须在学区房好好准备小升初考试和中考！（学区房指在优秀小学附近的房产——小升初是指升上初中的考试——中考是指升上高中的考试）

[–]techolah[S] 1 指标 1 天前
yeah, cheers. I'm mainly wondering about whether or not people consider there to be greater mobility provided by the Chinese educational system than the UK's.

是的，赞同。我主要想知道人们是否认为中国教育系统提供的流动性比英国教育提供的流动性更大。

[–]chikarico 1 指标 1 天前
Chinese people have long been proud of our unique ladder climbing examination system, namely keju originated in feudal period. But in reality，children are prevented from good school because of hukou and house price.

长期以来，中国人都为自己独特的选拔考试制度而自豪，即起源于封建时代的科举制度。但实际上，由于户口和房价的阻碍，孩子们上不了好学校。

[–]Minos_King 2 指标 1 天前
Don’t the wealthy Chinese just send their kids to those same private schools in the UK (And US and Switzerland)?

中国的有钱人不都是把他们的孩子送去读英国（美国和瑞士那里）的私立学校吗？

[–]doodouu 1 指标 1 天前
Some of them choose to send their kids to international schools in china where there are less competitions, then send their kids abroad for college.

他们中的一些人选择将孩子送到竞争较少的中国国际学校，然后将孩子送到国外上大学。

[–]Minos_King 1 指标 1 天前
Isn’t a foreign passport required to send a kid to an International school here? That’s what I was told anyway.

不是需要外国护照才能将孩子送到国际学校吗？反正这就是我所知道的。

[–]sygedeUnited States 1 指标 1 天前
Some but not all. It's damn cheap to buy a foreign passport anyway. Pretty cheap in some cases

一些但不是全部。反正一本外国护照实在是太便宜了。在某些情况下相当便宜。

[–]Minos_King 1 指标 1 天前
Oh right. I assumed it was some law. Yeah I guess if you’re wealthy you can get yourself a foreign passport.

啊对。我觉得其中是会有一些法规。但我想只要你够富有，你能给自己买到一本外国护照。

[–]sygedeUnited States 1 指标 1 天前
You don't have to be wealthy a Antigua passport only cost about 250k usd. That's pretty cheap all things considered

你不必多有钱，安提瓜护照只要约25万美元就能买到。它很便宜且所有的事项都考虑进去了。

[–]fleetwoodd 1 指标 1 天前
There are two tiers of international schools.

有两类国际学校。

[–]Minos_King 1 指标 1 天前
Ah ok I see. I’ll need to send my kids to school soon (Filipino and UK passports) Thinking of Chinese private school for elementary then if we’re still here International school for secondary education. That’s what teachers and other parents have advised.

好的，我明白了。我需要尽快将我的孩子送到学校（菲律宾和英国护照）。如果我们一直在这，会考虑把中国的私立学校作为基础教育，把国际学校当做中等教育。这是教师和其他家长建议我的。

[–]americarthegreat 1 指标 1 天前
Elite Chinese, no. They don't have to -- why pay for a private school abroad when taxpayer money is going towards giving your children world class education (according to PISA's standardized tests, which can't capture all facets of education)? Wealthy Chinese, yes.

中国精英的话，没有分化。他们没这个必要——为什么纳税人的钱要付给国外的私立学校，让孩子接受世界级的教育呢？（根据国际学生评估项目标准化测试，这些考试不能涵盖教育的所有方面）中国有钱人的话，是的他们有分化。

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[–]americarthegreat 2 指标 1 天前 
There are the very elite schools but these are a fraction and are kind of hard to judge against.
But beyond that urban schools are way better than non-urban schools and first-tier are way better than non-first tier.

这里有非常精英的学校，但这只是一小部分，很难评判。但除此之外，城市里的学校比乡下的学校更好，然后一线城市的比非一线的好。

Shanghai teachers make enough money to buy new BMWs (in part through hongbao -- ie. bribes from parents to give extra attention to their child or even to give undeserved grades). The education is typically that good too -- these are the schools that you see on international rankings.

上海教师赚钱足够来买新的宝马（部分通过红包贿赂——即父母希望老师能给他们的孩子更多的关注，甚至是不当的成绩）。教育通常也很好——这些是你在国际排名上看到的学校。

BUT -- a good half of families in first tiers are not able to attend those schools because they don't have the appropriate hukou -- a lot of students are required to pay a larger tuition to attend private schools which are much inferior in quality OR the students stay with their grandparents in a rural town or second/third tier city and attend school there.

但是——一线城市的好一半家庭不能去那些学校，因为他们没有合适的户口——许多学生被要求支付更多学费去上那些质量差得多的私立学校，或者学生和他们的祖父母留在一个农村城镇或第二/第三线城市，并在那里上学。

But just having an urban hukou doesn't mean your student will be able to get into those schools. They only accept the most successful of students or the students of parents capable of paying the right hongbaos that keep their students in. I'll get to this more later.
Second tier and below -- educational quality degrades really fast.

但是，拥有一个城市户口并不意味着学生能够进入这些学校。他们只接收最成功的学生或父母有能力给红包的走后门学生。这个我稍后再谈。二线城市及以下——教育质量递降得非常快。

So not only are you bound by your economic status your success is largely determined by where you were born.

所以，你不仅要受经济地位的约束，你的成功在很大程度上还取决于你的出生地。

Rural schools are absolutely atrocious -- often times teachers are practically volunteers (the official wages are laughably noncompetitive) with one to five teachers and a couple administrators taking on responsibility for hundreds of students' educations usually with no money to buy necessary educational materials like books or having separate classrooms (so multiple grade levels will all be taught in the same classroom simultaneously). Poverty is so horrible that most students drop out when they're first able to legally (and de facto they have dropped out long before that school just says they're still attending (ps -- this is where China gets their literacy rates from. It assumes that everyone that has attended mandatory education is literate and as pretty much no students are allowed to legally drop out so pretty much all Chinese are recorded as being literate regardless if they really learned to read and write in school or not)).

农村学校简直糟透了——那里的教师们通常是志愿者（正式教师的工资低得可笑，毫无竞争对比性），有一到五名教师和一对夫妇管理员负责数百名学生的教育，他们通常没钱去购买那些必要的教育材料如书籍，或有（按不同年级分开的）单独教室（因此，不同年级的学生会同时在同一间教室里听课）。贫困是如此可怕，以至于大多数学生在第一次能合法的时候就辍学了（以及事实上，他们早就退学了，学校只是说他们还有上学。（PS：这是中国称他们识字率高的原因。它假定每个参加过强制性教育的人都识字，而且几乎没有学生被允许合法退学过，所以几乎所有的中国人都被记录为识字者，不管他们是否真的学会了读写认字。）

And even if everything goes right -- you have the right hukou you're not burdened by poverty you're in a city with a decent education system -- the Chinese school system is set up to only graduate the most excellent of students. The Chinese gov. rewards schools for having high scores on the academic tests especially the college-entrance exam (gaokao) but also the high school entrance exam (zhongkao). Because of this schools put a lot of pressure on underperforming students to just drop out so they don't drag the school's scores down and if you don't the school will juggle the lemon students (ie. students that would be considered average in the US) trying to pass them off to other schools where education basically doesn't exist but where checkboxes are ticked to make bureaucrats happy because they can say 99% of enrolled students graduate their school. On top of the pressure from schools if you're a poor family and your child doesn't score well on one of these tests there is a lack of faith you will ever be more successful than your parents so often times you'll just be pulled out of school and start your "adult" life. Maybe they're not wrong.

并且即使一切都好——你有正确的户口，你没有贫穷的负担，你生活在一个有着良好教育制度的城市——中国的学校制度是为了培养出最优秀的学生而设立的。中国政府奖励学校们在学业考试上取得高分，尤其是大学入学考试（高考），以及高中入学考试（中考）。正因为如此，学校对学业表现不佳的学生们施加了很大的压力，要求他们退学，这样他们就不会拖累学校整体的分数，如果不这样，学校就会欺骗柠檬学生（即在美国被视为平均水平的学生），试图把他们传给其他根本不存在教育的学校，但在复选框打勾让官僚们快乐因为他们可以说99%的注册在校学生都从学校毕业了。在学校的压力下，如果你来自一个贫穷的家庭，你的孩子在这些测试中成绩不好，不会有人相信你会比你的父母更成功，所以你常常会被踢出学校，开始你的“成人”生活。也许他们没有错。

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[–]techolah[S] 1 指标 1 天前 
Thanks - the last paragraph sounds like the case that I'm most interested in. The comments about rural schools and such are valid I just think that there's such a huge difference that I can't really consider them in the same comparison.

谢谢——最后一段听起来像是我最感兴趣的。关于农村学校的评论内容相当有理有据的，我只是觉得差别如此巨大，我不能将它们相提并论。

“everything goes right -- you have the right hukou you're not burdened by poverty you're in a city with a decent education system”
This seems to be the most comparable with UK I think. Or easier to consider at least (of course I'm aware there are some people living in relative poverty in the UK before anything about that's mentioned).

“并且即使一切都好——你有正确的户口，你没有贫穷的负担，你生活在一个有着良好教育制度的城市”
我想这似乎是最能与英国媲美的。或者至少说更容易考虑到的（当然，在此之前，我知道在英国也有人活得相对贫困）。

So if we consider this case - would you think that there's a better chance for someone to climb the ladder in this system if they're academically capable ?

所以，如果我们考虑这个问题——你认为如果一个人在学术上有能力的话，那么他在这个教育机制下有更好的机会去“提升自己的阶级”吗？

The quote driven stats nonsense that you talk about (having 99% enrolled etc) also exists in the UK system though I'm not sure whether it's as bad here as it is in China.

你引用的那些荒谬统计数据（像是99%的在读生毕业率等）所隐含的问题也存在于英国体系中，虽然我不确定它是不是跟中国的情况一样糟糕。

[–]americarthegreat 1 指标 1 天前 
“This seems to be the most comparable with UK I think.”
Except.. it's not. Because I'd reckon a good 75% of the nation's students are not eligible for this (About half the nation being rural then about half of urban Chinese actually being "natives" of first tier cities the other half not having a native hukou). We're only considering the top 25% of Chinese here. So already 75% of Chinese children are disqualified from the latter by the very nature of their birth.

“我想这似乎是最能与英国媲美的。”
然而...它们不能相媲美。因为我估计全国75%的学生没有资格申请这个。（这个国家大约一半地区是农村，然后，大约一半的中国城市人实际上是一线城市的“本地人”，另一半人则没有本地户口）。我们考虑到的只有那些处于顶端的25%的中国人。因此，已经有75%的中国儿童由于出生地而被后者剥夺掉了资格。

“of course I'm aware there are some people living in relative poverty in the UK”
And poverty in the UK is a completely different beast. Poverty in the UK is like -- oh shit I can't buy pudding this week and I might end up with my electricity shut off until my next paycheck. Oh well looks like I'll have to send the kids to school with PB&J. Poverty in China is like.. oh shit price of electricity went up a cent. I better start cleaning my house earlier now because I can only afford to run my light bulb for two hours a day now. If you go to the home of a migrant from a rural place -- you'll notice that a lot of them leave their lightbulbs out of their sockets when they're not in use -- because being a typical rural Chinese means you're scared the electric used by a lightbulb that's off might be a significant amount of electricity.

“我知道在英国也有人活得相对贫困。”
英国的贫穷是完全不同级别的野兽。贫困在英国是——哦，妈的，这个星期我不能买布丁了，我可能要停电了直到下一笔工资发下来的时候我能把电费给交了。哦，好吧，看来孩子们最近去学校带的午餐只能是花生酱/果酱三明治了。贫困在中国是..哦，该死的，电费涨了一分钱。我最好早点开始打扫房子了，因为我现在只能负担每天两小时的用电了。如果你去从农村来的民工家里——你会注意到很多人在不用电时会把电灯插头拔掉——因为作为一名典型的中国农村人，意味着你怕即使你不用电灯，那些跟插座连在一起的电灯泡也会偷偷用掉一大堆电。

“So if we consider this case - would you think that there's a better chance for someone to climb the ladder in this system if they're academically capable ?”
So now we're looking at only the top 25% of Chinese who were born into favorable conditions. Mostly they'll end up in the same status as their parents are right now but just benefit from a much improved economy. Their parents were probably accountants they'll probably be an engineer. They'll live a life similar to most middle class Americans except a lot less luxury (ie. they might only own a middle-of-the-line Huawei phone and consider a laptop an unnecessary expense they could afford if they saved up but have no real reason to no car ownership etc.). The only Chinese that will "move up" from that are those with political connections. There is some limited people that are able to move up despite that but these are an extreme minority -- just those who score well enough for a fraction of the slots for the best Chinese universities like Tsinghua. To say this gives you a chance to move up is like saying that the chance to move up in the US is guaranteed because some students can get into Ivy League.

“所以，如果我们考虑这个问题——你认为如果一个人在学术上有能力的话，那么他在这个教育机制下有更好的机会去“提升自己的阶级”吗？“
所以现在我们只看那些处于顶端的中国前25%的出生在有利条件下的中国人。他们中大多数最终会和他们的父母一样，只不过你会得益于一个更好的家庭经济环境。他们的父母若是会计的话，他们之后就可能是工程师。他们将过着与大多数中产阶级美国人一样的生活，只是不那么奢侈就是了。（比如，他们可能只拥有中端的华为手机，然后认为笔记本电脑是不必要的开支，他们买得起但如果他们把这笔钱存起来的话，没理由他们买不起一辆车等等）。唯一能“向上走”的中国人就是那些有政治关系的人。尽管有一些条件有限的人能够“往上爬”，但那只有极端的少数人——只有那些分数好到能上中国最好大学如清华的一小部分人才行。要说这给了你一个“往上爬”的机会，就像说在美国你是肯定会有上升机会的，因为有些学生可以进入常春藤盟校。

Despite all the competition for the gaokao I don't really think it gives students any better of a chance of moving up significantly between classes. I guess it might have a significant effect on whether you end up in the upper regions or lower regions of the middle class of urban China but it's not like it's going to give you a realistic shot into Chinese upper classes -- that it's a demonstration of China's meritocracy and reflect's "China's ancient custom of giving anyone the chance to become political elites if they study hard" is just a myth.

尽管高考竞争激烈，我真的不认为这会给学生们能显着提升自己阶层的好机会。我想这可能会很大影响你最后是到达上流阶层还是降到中国城市中产阶级中的较低层，但这并不意味着会给你一个进入中国上层阶级的确凿机会——这是一个展示中国精英和反映“任何人都能成为政治精英只要他们努力学习的中国的古老习俗”只是一个神话。

And this is the way China has been for a long long long time. An elite entirely decided by the whims of politics and political connections a fairly well-to-do class that provides for those elite and the rest of the population have 0 fucks given about them deemed as people born peasants to die as peasants with no fucks given to whether they really deserve that or not.

而中国长期以来就是如此的运作方式。精英们完全由政治和政治关系的反复无常所决定，相当富裕的阶层为那些精英提供上升机会，和剩下的人机会却只有零，生是农民的话到死你都是农民，对他们是否够格上升完全不发一言。

TL:DR; You chance of moving up in China because of Gaokao and education is pretty much the same chance you have of getting into Ivy League in the US. The rest is political connections.

简短总结一下：在中国你因为高考和教育上升的机会和在美国进入常春藤联盟的机会是一样的。剩下的就只是政治关系。

-------------译者：浮生^有幸-审核者：hht288------------

[–]Tommust 2 指标 1 天前 
While a high GaoKao score is great spaces at good universities are limited and have quotas. For instance Beijing students can get into Beida with a lower score than students from other areas.
You are more likely to climb the social ladder through a Western society's education than China's.
All the major cities in China have schools for students who have Hukuo for that city and then there are immigrate schools for students how don't have Hukuos. The quality between these can be huge. There are also international schools as well.

虽然高考成绩高很不错，但好大学的名额是有限的且有配额。例如，北京的学生可以用比来自其他地区的学生较低的分数进入北大。比起中国，在西方你更有可能通过教育体系“往上爬”。在中国所有的大城市都有那些为有本地城市户口的学生开的学校和那些为没有本地户口的学生开的移民学校。它们之间的教育质量是巨大的。中国还有些国际学校。

And like the rest of the world education is great but connections are better. If you want to "climber the social ladder" make better connections.

和世界其他地方一样，教育是伟大的，但人脉关系网更好使。如果你想“往上爬”，就得建立更好的关系网。

[–]Tommust 2 指标 1 天前 
China's education is the bottom of the ladder up the climb as long as there is a good score you can go to prestigious schools and change their destiny.

“中国的教育是底层向上攀登的阶梯，只要有个好分数，就可以上名校，改变命运。”

Even if you have a top score in china there is no guarantee you will go to the top University.

在中国，即使你成绩很好，也没法保证你能进入顶尖大学。

Western education on the other hand is a stratification mechanism. Mass education only provides basic and limited education. To be an elite education must be purchased separately from the market and those who can not afford it are automatically eliminated.

“而西方的教育则是一个分层机制，大众教育只提供基本、有限的教育，要想成为精英，就必须从市场上另行购买教育，买不起的人则自然而然地被淘汰了。” 

Lots of middle class (upper and lower) and even some poor student are admitted to the Top universities in the UK. I'm pretty sure this also happens in other Western Education systems.
The article is interesting but IMO the conclusion is misleading.

许多中产阶级（上级和下级），甚至一些贫穷的学生都被英国顶尖大学录取。我敢肯定其他西方教育体系也会发生这种情况。这篇文章很有趣，但在我看来结论是误导性的。

[–]zhaoshuyang 1 指标 1 天前 
I would say yes. The mobility is higher as a simple answer.

我想说是的。简单来说，中国教育的流动性更高。

[–]techolah[S] 1 指标 1 天前 
You would say that the mobility is higher in China ok cool.
Can you provide some reasoning / examples though? Otherwise there's not much for me to go on

你说中国的教育流动性更高？好吧，你可以这么说。但你能提供一些论证/例子吗？否则我就没什么可说的了。

[–]zhaoshuyang 1 指标 1 天前 
The good schools are usually public not expensive and they recruite students by academic performance. The competition makes it like a traffic flow. If someone is clever enough to merge into the fast road in his childhood his future class is generally there no matter of his parents.

好学校通常都是公立的，学费不贵，而且他们通过学业成绩来招收学生。竞争使它像一个交通流。如果有人足够聪明，在童年时就可以融入快车道，他以后所处的阶级一般都会是那里，不管他的父母怎样。

[–]chikarico 1 指标 1 天前* 
I think it is not comparable between China and UK，I'm just trying to have a obxtive descxtion about Gaokao.

我想中国和英国之间没有可比性，我只是做个关于高考的客观描述。

Gaokao is of significance for its high equality. Though corruption and fairness can not be eradiceted thoroughly Chinese people still view it as least bad system because of its uniformed and obxtive standard which enables students with high score to study in top universities regardless of their family wealth and social reputation.

高考因其高度的平等而意义重要。尽管腐败和公平不可能彻底根除，中国人仍然认为高考是不太坏的制度，因为它统一和客观的标准，使得高分数的学生可以在顶级大学学习，而不用考虑他们的家庭、财富和社会声誉等。
However Gaokao is not flawless and has long been criticied for its regional discrmination for example students in Beijing are easier to be admitted by top schools than that in surrounding provinces like Hebei and Shandong for most of them are seated in Beijing they should cater to local government by setting lower standard for local students. That has cauaes lots of Gaokao Yimin(immigrant) who move their children's hukou to provinces with more educational resources.

然而，高考并非完美无瑕，并一直因为地域性歧视而被批评，例如，北京的学生更容易被顶尖学校录取，而不是像河北和山东这样的周边省份，因为学校大多数都坐落在北京，他们应该迎合当地政府，为当地学生设定低标准。这已经引起许多高考移民现象，家长们把孩子的户口迁到有更多教育资源的省份。