中国人和非中国人之间史学和理念基础的差异 [美国媒体]

每人一小段，翻译我也行！
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-------------译者：yfqh008-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------



Interesting wikipedia article on the historical and conceptual foundations of the distinction between "Chinese" and "non-Chinese"

维基百科趣文在历史和观念的基础上区分“中国人”和“非中国人”


-------------译者：晏晏君竹-审核者：rumor四起------------

[–]tan_guan 3 指标 20小时前
Interesting. I remember my Chinese History professor telling us something similar to what /u/dream208 wrote - that the association of ethnicity and being "Chinese" is relatively recent and due to European influence. Apparently early foreign visitors to China could be fully accepted as Chinese as long as they linguistically and culturally integrated themselves, not to different from the attitudes towards ethnicity and citizenship seen in many Western countries today.

 有趣。我记得我的中国历史教授跟我们说了和/u/dream208所言类似的事：民族划分与成为‘中国人’之间的关联是晚近的、受欧洲影响的事。似乎那些小时候就来到中国的外国人，只要他们在语言和文化上融入中国，就能被完全接纳为中国人。这和许多西方国家如今对待种族划分和公民身份的态度并无太大不同。

[–]04231993 1 指标 20小时前
early foreign visitors to China could be fully accepted as Chinese as long as they linguistically and culturally integrated themselves
lol no
Nationalism and patriotism are quite new to China, I'd say younger than a hundred years, but racism still existed. It still exists today in the same way Chinese go her der he northerner he southerner shuts gate go away provincialism lolz.

 （引用楼上）那些小时候就来到中国的外国人，只要他们在语言和文化上融入中国，就能被完全接纳为中国人
可不是这样。
民族主义和爱国主义对于中国来说还很新，要我说还不到一百年，但当时民族差别主义仍然存在。它就像中国人抱团，喊“北方人”“南方人”然后关门走人这种地方主义一样。（最后一段可能原文存在笔误，实在不太能完全理解，抱歉了）

[–]tan_guan 1 指标 19小时前
You're missing the point, which was that the concept of Hua was not racially/ethnically exclusive. Like it says on the Wiki page:
The historian Frank Dikötter (1990:420) says the Chinese "idea of 'race' (zhong [种], "seed", "species", "race") started to dominate the intellectual scene" in the late 19th-century Qing dynasty and completed the "transition from cultural exclusiveness to racial exclusiveness in modern China" in the 1920s.[48]

你没抓到重点，在当时，中华民族的概念不是种族排他性的。正如维基上所表述的：
历史学家Frank Dikötter表示，中国的“种族”（种类）概念在十九世纪的晚清开始于知识分子语境中盛行，在二十世纪二十年代完成了“现代中国从文化排他到种族排他”的转型。

-------------译者：kittyoops-审核者：rumor四起------------

[–]delaynomoar 1 指标 18小时前
Interesting. I'll be very curious to see what Dikötter had to say about Sun Yat-sen.

 呵呵，我很好奇 Dikötter得如何评价孙中山。

[–]dream208 4 指标 23小时前
Chinese identity has always been a  cosmopolitan cultural identity instead of blood-related ethnic one until probably at the fall of Northern Song dynasty.
Today's Chinese nationalism's obsession so-called "Han" bloodline is hilariously ironic. This very idea of ethnically defined nationality is actual a "foreign" concept introduced by the West (which, in my opinion, one of the few truly poisonous ideologies conjured during the recent human history).
If we goes by the original definition of "Hua", we could make a strong statement that modern Japan and Korea are more "Chinese" than the mainland China itself. Hey, whoever believes in Hua culture should be considered as one of the Hua... how many mainland Chinese did you meet who truly believe in Hua and practice the Hua culture before its bastardization during Qing and PRC? You see more Hua culture in Kyoto than in Beijing.

 可能直到在北宋灭亡以前，华人都不是按血缘血统定义的，而是一个世界性的文化认同。
如今中国种族主义者所迷恋的“汉”血统是个搞笑的讽刺，这个以民族定义国籍的想法实际上是个纯粹从西方引进的外国舶来品（在我看来，这是近代人类史上出现的少有有害意识形态之一）。
如果按照“中华”的原始定义，我们甚至可以说现在的日本和韩国比中国大陆更加“中国”。毕竟，（按照古代定义来说）只要遵循中华文化的人都应该被看作是华族的一员（奉中华文明者皆华夏）。经过清朝和中华人民共和国的毁坏后，如今你所遇见的中国大陆人有多少还保留着中华传统文化？你在京都看见的中华传统文化比北京更多。

[–]Hanfresco 2 指标 21小时前*
While Japan certainly did a good job keeping their traditions alive, it is important to point out that it is Japanese traditional culture. Sure some of it didn't change or changed very little since import from ancient China, but it's been internalized into Japanese culture. They're not more Chinese. They certainly don't identify as Hua.

值得指出的是日本的传统文化方面，他们在保护传统文化活力上做的很棒。虽然他们的部分文化是来源于古代中国，且作出的的改变很少，但却深刻地与日本文化融合。他们并没有变得“中华化”。所以他们不被定义为中华民族。

-------------译者：二点亦旋-审核者：rumor四起------------
 
[–]Hanfresco 2 指标 18小时前
No one is denying Japan borrowed a lot of cultural elements from China. But to claim traditional Japanese culture is just Chinese culture transplanted in Japan is simply wrong and ignoring hundreds of years of internal development and innovation in Japan.

楼上的，没人否认日本借鉴了很多中国的文化元素。但是如果要说日本传统文化只不过是把中国文化移植到了日本而已，那就大错特错了，这种说法完全忽视了日本国内数百年来的发展和创新。

[–]04231993 -1 指标 16小时前
But to claim traditional Japanese culture is just Chinese culture transplanted in Japan is simply wrong and ignoring hundreds of years of internal development and innovation in Japan.
Pretty sure I never said this.

楼上的，“但是如果要说日本传统文化只不过是把中国文化移植到了日本而已，那就大错特错了，这种说法完全忽视了日本国内数百年来的发展和创新”。
我非常肯定我绝对没有说过这句话。
 
[–]Hanfresco 4 指标 14小时前
You're right. I'll be reminded to mention that the next time a Chinese person claims they invented the pipa and huqin. Just like how I'll remind anyone that traditional Japanese culture is pretty much just Chinese culture transplanted in Japan. It's not wrong to point out that more of traditional Chinese cultural items survive in Japan than in China just like how traditional Chinese culture is more evident in Taiwan than in China. It's neither claiming ownership nor is it some grandiose political statement. I don't see what all the fuss about when you see a Japanese castle and go, gee that looks a lot of Tang dynasty buildings in paintings, I wonder how that happened. Hmm... maybe there's some connection there. It's neither annoying nor wrong to point out the very obvious.

楼上的，你说过哦：
“你是对的。下次如果有中国人声称他们发明了琵琶和胡琴，我一定记得提醒他们这一点。就像我会提醒所有人，日本传统文化完全不过是把中国传统文化移植到了日本而已。指出中国传统文化元素大部分在日本得到了保留而非在中国，就像指出在台湾比在中国更容易看到中国传统文化一样，都不是错。这既不是在宣示所有权也不是在表明什么重要的政治立场。如果你看到一座日本城堡，对它跟画上的唐朝建筑有多么相像而啧啧称奇，我不会对此大惊小怪，我只会思考这种现象是怎么产生的。嗯……或许日本城堡和唐朝建筑是有联系的。指出这么明显的事实完全不是惹人讨厌或者错误的。”

-------------译者：love_fyf-审核者：rumor四起------------
 
[–]dream208 -1 指标 21小时前
It is a complex question you pointed out.
While what you wrote is true under the context of Nationalism, but in term of culture it is not as absolute. Are gimbap and sushi really two different things just because they are separated by an national boundary?

你指出的是一个复杂的问题。
你所写的都是已国家主义为背景，但是按照文化来讲这不是绝对的。难道就因为属于不同的国家，就能说紫菜包饭和寿司是两种不同的东西吗？

But alas, how modern identity work is that you always need to claim and essentialize something as yours. But such as way of seeing the world is not really comparable to what people and philosopher in the central plain see the world and human identity.
The idea of "Hua" knows no boundary. It is not impregnated by today's national identity. As long as your are "cultured" in the eyes of the central plain gentlemen and literati, you are considered as "Hua". If we are to take it to an time-traveling example, the scholars who came out with the concept of "Hua" will regard Japan for being more "Hua"ness than today's Chinese regardless what modern Chinese and Japanese identify themselves as.
What I am trying to say is that the modern concept of "Chinese" (中国人) has nearly nothing to do with or has little commonality with the ancient "Hua-Xia" (华夏) identity. And there are more concept of "Hua" (which comes hand in hand with the concept of "Li: 礼) preserved in today's Japan, Korea or even Taiwan than the mainland China. For those who identify with Hua-Xia culture, they will probably consider Japan and Korea part of "their" cultural zone in a none-possessive way... similar to what French would consider English as being part of the same Christendom but the Ottoman Empire is a complete alien "other" during the medieval times.
Sorry if my English ability has complicated things more instead of making them more clearly.

但是，唉~，现代民族认同就是需要不停地声称和强调某些东西是你的。但是现在人们看待世界的方式与中央平原的人们和哲学家看待世界和人的认同的方式是没有可比性的。“华”的概念是没有边界的。它不是由今天的国家认同所孕育的。只要你在中央平原的绅士和学者眼中是“开化的”那么你就被认为是“华”人。如果举一个例子来说明，如果不考虑现代中国人和日本人的自我认同性的话，一个穿越而来的“华”人学者将会认为日本比今天的中国更加的符合“华”的概念。我想说的是现代的“中国人”几乎与古代“华夏”族没有关系或只有很少的共同性。与中国大陆相比，今天的日本、韩国甚至是台湾地区保持 了更多的（与“礼”息息相关的）“华”的概念。对于那些认同华夏文化的人，他们可能会认为日本与韩国是“他们的”文化区域的一部分但又不在他们的控制下。这就像中世纪时法国认为英国同为信奉基督教的国家的一部分，而认为奥斯曼帝国是一个完全陌生的“其他人”。如果因为我英文能力有限，没有把事情说清楚，我在此道歉。

-------------译者：魔哥598543214-审核者：rumor四起------------
 
[–]Hanfresco 3 指标 18小时前
Again, just because Korea and Japan preserved more Hua doesn't make them Hua, not when they don't identify as so. You may want to paint a rosy picture of some boundery-less apolitical cultural concept, but it really isn't so in reality. Firstly. from the outside, those cultures borrowed what they think is helpful to them and adapted them to suit their own needs. Cultures can borrow from other cultures without becoming the other culture (is China actually a Western country because of the massive borrowing from the West in recent years?). Secondly, you're missing that historically, Hua is directly tied to whichever Chinese polity was ruling. The Shang were originally barbarians from the east and became Hua because they said they were. The Zhou were originally barbarians from the west and became Hua because they said they were. Buddhism was originally from India and became accepted as Hua because the Tang emperors said so. And, of course people can become Hua too, but at the expense of their previous identity. Just ask the Xianbei. You only become Hua when you come to identity as such ethno-linguistically. So no, Koreans and Japanese are not Hua.

再说一次，朝鲜和日本保留了更多的“华”并不能使他们变成“华”，只要他们不这样自我认定。你或许想画一幅界限模糊的非政治的文化观念图景，但它实际上并不是这样。首先，从外界看，日韩借鉴那些它们认为对自己有益的部分并加以改造使之符合他们的要求。文化可以借鉴别的文化而不是变成别的文化（近年来中国大量借鉴西方就把中国变成了一个西方国家？）。其次，你忽略它的历史意义，“华”是和中国政体紧密相关的，无论是谁来统治。商原本是东方的野蛮人，后来变成了华，因为他们这样自我认定；周原本是西方的野蛮人，后来变成了华，因为他们也这样自我认定；佛教产自印度，也被接纳成华的一部分，因为唐朝的皇帝这样认为。还有，人当然也可以变成“华族”，但代价是放弃原本的身份认定，这事你可以问问鲜卑。你可以变成华族，当你从族裔语言上这样自我认定时，因此，朝鲜人和日本人不是华族。

 -------------译者：围观已一年-审核者：rumor四起------------
 
[–]scottishjellybeans 1 指标 12小时前
You're mistaken. Modern Chinese nationalism is not tied to Han-ness. Modern Chinese nationalism is, in fact, a rejection of Han chauvinism, and an advocacy for zhonghua minzu 中华民族.
Chinese nationalism is to the nation-state; it supercedes ethnicity. It's why Genghis Khan is a Chinese national hero, rather than a murderous, barbarian invader. It's why Goguryeo was an ancient Chinese polity, rather than a Korean backwater on the peripheries.
As for Korea and Japan being hua today? Well... they weren't even hua back then. They were dongyi 东夷, eastern barbarians. That being said, many arguments were made throughout Chinese history for the superiority of Koreans over other barbarians. The Book of Han and Book of Sui both mention Koreans as being less rambunctious and more susceptible to being civilised.

你肯定没对。现代的中国民族主义并没有和汉紧密联系在一起。实际上，现代的中国民族主义是对汉沙文主义的抛弃，也是中华民主的拥护者。
 中国民族主义是针对国家而言，它取代了种族渊源。这就是为什么说成吉思汗是中国民族英雄而不是一个野蛮的侵略者和屠夫。所以说高句丽是古代中国政体，而不是位于偏远边界的朝鲜荒地。
至于今天的韩国和日本是不是中华民族呢？即使是在古代他们也算不上。他们被称作东夷，位于东边的夷族。话虽如此，但是在中国历史上，有很多论点还是认为比起其他野蛮人，朝鲜人更不那么粗暴、更容易被文明化。
 
[–]upads 0 指标 20小时前
Tl;Dr, if you're are not Han you are a babarian.

亲，如果你不是汉人，那就是野蛮人。
 
 [–]babamcribMongolia[S] 5 指标 20小时前
Tl;Dr, you didn't read the article.

亲，你没有认真看文阿。