“美国优先”把世界推向中国 [美国媒体]

‘America First’ surrenders the world to Chinese influence

“美国优先”把世界推向中国




[–]TheFlyingBoat
Fuck that noise. We're kicking Trump out in 2020 and bringing back the American-led world order back. Our institutions are still strong for now. The repair to the decay will take some time, though.

qnmd噪音。我们将在2020年将特朗普踢下台，并重新夺回美国主导的世界秩序。我们的体系现在仍然很强大。不过，修复腐烂的过程还需要一段时间。

[–]WinterTeaching 
bringing back the American-led world order back.
It's dead, Jim. Everyone in the world has been chomping at their for your downfall.

“重新夺回美国主导的世界秩序”
它已经死了，吉姆。世界上所有人都在迫不及待地看你们的垮台。

[–]Scatman_Jeff 
Personally, I think it is too late - the damage to your reputation is done. The US has proven themselves to be an unreliable, and unstable ally. Why would we (non-americans) prioritize diplomatic relations with the US when there is no guarantee that any agreement will be honoured by the succeeding administration?

在我看来，我认为这已经太迟了——你们的声誉已经受到了损害。美国已证明自己是一个不可靠、不稳定的盟友。为什么在不能保证某些协议都能得到下届政府认可的情况下，我们（非美国人）要优先处理与美国的外交关系？

[–]TheFlyingBoat 
Because you don't have much of a choice? The EU is unreliable at best and suicidal at worst, China's view of the global order is fundamentally at odds with the modern conception of human rights, freedom, liberal democracy, and general openness, and after that you are left with powers that will likely not possess the necessary power projection capabilities to prop up any global system 30-50 years from now. Also, in the present we are literally the only state with that capability.

因为你们没有太多的选择？欧盟往好了说叫不可靠，往坏了说叫作死；中国对全球秩序的看法从根本上与现代意义上的人权、自由、自由民主和广泛开放背道而驰，而且除此之外，你们只剩下了那些其必要的力量投射能力不足以从现在起支撑某种全球体系长达30-50年的国家。而且，在当前，我们实在是唯一拥有上述能力的国家。

[–]Scatman_Jeff
Because you don't have much of a choice? The EU is unreliable at best and suicidal at worst,
The EU is a more reliable, and more attractive option than the US
China's view of the global order is fundamentally at odds with the modern conception of human rights, freedom, liberal democracy, and general openness.
So is the US'.
You have a detention center where you torture and hold prisoners indefinitely, without due process.
Your lack of workers rights is an embarrassment; Workers are not paid a reasonable wage, you are the only western country that does not guarantee maternity leave, never mind paternity leave.
Your health care system is an embarrassment.
You have a prison system more concerned with making a profit, and using prisoners as slave labour rather than rehabilitating them.
You have imprisoned larger portion of your citizens than any other country in history.
You are the only western country which still uses capital punishment.
You have a president and major political party which has advocated for the imprisonment, and assassination of political opponents, and has encouraged violence against anyone critical of them.
You have a political system which prioritizes corporate, and financial interests over the intrests and well being of Americans - the US is not a democracy.
You have a military which has repeatedly overthrown democratically elected governments, and replaced them with brutal dictators sympathetic to American corporate interests.
You have a military which indiscriminately bombs civilians, and simply defines any one who happens to be in the vicinity of the strike as a combatant.
The US is not the shining city on a hill you think it is.
China and the EU aren't perfect, but they are viable alternatives.

“因为你们没有太多的选择？欧盟往好了说叫不可靠，往坏了说叫作死”
欧盟是一个比美国更可靠，更有吸引力的选择。
“中国对全球秩序的看法从根本上与现代意义上的人权、自由、自由民主和广泛开放背道而驰”
美国也是如此。
你们有一个拘留中心，你可以在没有正当程序的情况下，对囚犯进行折磨和关押。
你们工人权利的缺乏是一种尴尬；工人们没有得到合理的工资，你们是唯一一个不保证产假的西方国家，更不用谈陪产假。
你们的医保体系很尴尬。
你们的监狱系统更关心如何赚钱，并且把囚犯当作奴隶而不是让改造修复他们。
在历史上，你们囚禁的公民比任何其他国家都多。
你们是唯一一个仍在使用死刑的西方国家。
你们有一个总统和主要政党，主张监禁和暗杀政治对手，并鼓励对任何批评他们的人实施暴力。
你们的政治体制把企业和金融利益置于美国人的利益和福祉之上——美国不是一个民主国家。
你们的军队曾多次推翻民主选举产生的政府，取而代之的是那些倾向于保护美国企业利益的残暴独裁者。
你们有一支无差别地轰炸平民的军队，而且将任何一个碰巧出现在空袭附近的人简单地定义作为战斗人员。
美国并不是你所想象的那个山顶之上的闪光之城。
中国和欧盟并不完美，但它们是可行的替代方案。

[–]SnowflakeMod 
Personally, I think it is too late - the damage to your reputation is done.
Still have the largest economy and largest military. Never too late when you're far ahead.

“在我看来，我认为这已经太迟了——你们的声誉已经受到了损害”
（但我们）仍然拥有最强大的经济和军事力量。当你遥遥领先时，不存在什么“太迟了”一说。

[–]Scatman_Jeff  
Still have the largest economy
Not for long.
and military
Just because you spend more on your military doesn't mean it's the most effective. We know what happened in Vietnam, And the current situation in the middle East shows that you would not be able to exert influence across the globe through hard power alone. You need soft power for that, and that is diminishing rapidly.

“仍然拥有最强大的经济”
不会持续太久了
“和军事力量”
仅仅因为你在军事上花了更多的钱，并不意味着你的军事力量就是最有效的。我们知道越南发生了什么，而中东目前的局势表明，仅靠硬实力，你将无法在全球施展影响力。你需要软实力，而这正在迅速减少。

[–]reeeessssaaaaMassachusetts  
China's GDP doesn't mean shit to anyone. They are going to have the largest economy only because they have over a billion people, if they had the same population as the U.S, their GDP would only be a 4th of what the U.S GDP is. Their people are dirt poor and only 20% have flushing toilets.

中国的GDP并不意味着什么。他们将拥有规模最大的经济，但这仅仅是因为他们有10多亿人口，如果他们拥有和美国一样的人口。他们的GDP只会是美国的四分之一。他们的人民一贫如洗，只有20%的人有安马桶的厕所。

[–]Scatman_Jeff 
The US economy is considered the most influential precisely because it is GDP, not GDP/capita which is relevant.

美国经济之所以被认为是最有影响力的，恰恰是因为它是总GDP，而不是人均GDP。

[–]reeeessssaaaaMassachusetts 
You're still forgetting that china has some pretty extreme problems like censorship, population, the environment, mass corruption in the military, extreme poverty, all the money being at the top, they will never be able to gain influence in the west because they don't care about human rights. China's GDP is like 9000 bucks compared to the U.S's 58000 dollars.
China's influence in Africa isn't even Trump's fault, it's because the U.S requires that countries receiving aid put it towards benefiting the country, China will give Africa money and if they put it in their personal bank account while the people starve, China doesn't care.

你仍然忘记了中国有一些非常极端的问题，比如审查、人口、环境、军队中的大规模fu败、极度贫困、所有的钱都在顶层，他们永远不能在西方获得影响力，因为他们不关心人权。与美国相比，中国的GDP是9000美元，而美国是58000美元。
中国在非洲的影响力甚至都不算特朗普的错，而是因为美国要求受援国将其用于造福国家，而中国将资金给予非洲，如果受援国人民在挨饿，而这些资金却被存入个人银行账户，中国也不会在意。

[–]Scatman_Jeff   
The US has 350 million people and a shrinking/stagnating middle class. China has 1.3 billion people and a rapidly growing middle class - that's a lot of people who can buy a lot of shit, which in turn means they are gaining economic influence. That's all there is to it.

美国有3.5亿人口，中产阶级不断萎缩/停滞不前。中国有13亿人口，中产阶级迅速壮大——这是很多消费能力很强的人，这反过来又意味着他们正在获得经济影响力。这就是事情的全部。

[–]SnowflakeMod 
Still have the largest economy
Not for long.
We'll see about that. ;-) Automation is not going to be kind to the Chinese economy.

“仍然拥有最强大的经济”
“不会持续太久了”
我们会看到的。;-)工业自动化对于中国经济来讲可不是个好东西哦。

[–]Scatman_Jeff 
Automation is not going to be kind to the US either. The countries that will fare the best with automation are those with the strongest social safety nets; something the US does not excel at.

自动化对美国来说也不是什么好东西。那些在自动化方面表现最好的国家是那些拥有最强大的社会保障网络的国家；而这却是美国的短板。

[–]SnowflakeMod
Automation is not going to be kind to the US either.
Of course not, but we've been moving away from manufacturing for decades as China has been moving into it.

“自动化对美国来说也不是什么好东西”
当然是，但几十年来我们一直在远离制造业，因为中国已经进入了这个领域。

[–]TheFlyingBoat  
America isn't the most robust superpower due to corporate influence on the government, but rather in spite of it. It's successful due to the incredible ability for it to globally export culture and morph the world into it's own image through Hollywood, define the global infrastructure of the 21st century through Silicon Valley, control global financial flows and international affairs through NYC and DC. The UN, the World Bank, the IMF, etc. are all powerful tools at our disposal to shape global norms and practices that help enable us to project power and make the world more like us. You need to improve your parodying capabilities more. You aren't funny and you aren't caricaturing anyone well. If you did either of them, it'd be better. 

由于企业对政府的影响，美国并不是最强大的超级大国，但这种影响也成就了今天的美国。它之所以成功，是因为它具有令人难以置信的全球文化输出能力，并通过好莱坞将世界变成自己的偶像，通过硅谷来定义21世纪的全球基础设施，通过纽约和华盛顿控制全球金融流动和国际事务。联合国、世界银行、国际货币基金组织等机构都是我们掌握的强有力的工具，可以塑造全球规范和实践，帮助我们投射实力，让世界变得更像我们。你们需要更多地提高你们的模仿能力。你们没意思，你们也没有巧妙地讽刺到任何国家。如果你做到了其中任何一点，情况会就更好。

[–]pornstar-martini 
Honestly, I can't see a) Trump being in office in 2019 and b) America not having self reflection and coming back harder and meaner with the mean racist underbelly sent back where they came from.

老实说，我看不到a）特朗普在2019年还会出现在百宫里； b）美国没有进行自我反省，而且还变回了以前那么刻薄和卑鄙，用种族主义的方式把移民赶了回去。

[–][deleted] 
dropping completely out of tpp cedes an entire hemisphere to china
the state department is basically non-functional, there are few ambassadors, and the direction of foreign policy in america is based on who has recently flattered the president the most
in addition, we just cut taxes right during the final buildup to a major recession and there's no indication the government has any ability to deal with that recession
if we pull out of nafta, there's another nail in the coffin. trump doesn't understand many things, but certainly that america is a services based economy and standards of living are too great here to really compete with the secondary sectors of nations abroad
but hey at least we have someone that thinks virtually everything in life is a zero sum game, despite all evidence to the contrary

完全退出tpp的做法将整个半球割让给了中国
美国国务院基本上是没有发挥作用，大使很少，而且美国的外交政策方向是由最近拍总统马屁最多的人决定的
此外，我们只是在引发经济大衰退的最后阶段才开始减税，而且没有迹象表明政府有能力应对经济衰退
如果我们退出北美自贸协定，那棺材上还有另一颗钉子。特朗普很多东西都不懂，但毫无疑问，美国是一个以服务业为基础的经济体，而这里的生活水平太高了，无法与国外的二线国家竞争。
但至少我们有这样一个人，他认为生活中的一切都是零和游戏，尽管所有的证据与他的观点都是相反的。

[–]TheFlyingBoat 
Agreed on all counts. Trump is going to hurt us, but if we elect the right congress and President we'll be fine.

完全赞同。特朗普将给我们造成伤害，但如果我们选对了国会和总统，一切又都会好起来的。

[–]ScarlettailFlorida 
Trump hasn't helped but I feel this was inevitable regardless of who was in power. China simply has too much economic hegemony right now, and the US is in no position to compete with it because our economy is simply not as booming. China has been luring Latin America and Africa for many years now, and they've become too powerful for us too much about their aggression in the East China Sea.
To me, I don't think this is so much a result of America getting weaker (which it has a little bit) but more so that China has grown much stronger and beyond our capacity to compete it. We surrendered any ability to compete long ago when we let them essentially turn the US into a market to sell their goods.

特朗普并没有雪上加霜，但我觉得无论谁当权，这都是不可避免的。中国现在的经济霸权太大了，而美国没有能力与之竞争，因为我们的经济根本没有繁荣。多年来，中国一直在吸引拉丁美洲和非洲，而且就中国在东海区域的扩张来说，他们在实力对比上已经远远强过我们。
在我看来，我不认为这主要是因为美国变得越来越弱（也有一点关系），而更多在于中国已经变得更加强大，与它开展竞争超出了我们的能力。很久以前，在我们让他们把美国变成了一个销售他们商品的市场的时候起，我们就放弃了竞争的能力。

[–]pornstar-martini 
Disagree, respectfully. It's about adaptation. The US can never compete for Labour. But it could for science. Like making clean energy advances then selling them off. But the current administration is fixed on the past. China also luring Asia (Cambodia or Sri Lanka as examples I've seen). They have the brawn, but the US has the brain. If it chose to. I'm a Brit and we have the same issue. Let's sell ideas not t shirts.

我不赞同，但没有不尊重你的意思。只是关于适应能力的问题。美国永远无法在劳动力方面展开竞争。但它可以在科学方面展开竞争。就像（研发）清洁能源的技术进步，然后再把它们卖掉。但是当前政府固执于以往（的发展模式）。中国也在吸引亚洲（如我所见过的柬埔寨或斯里兰卡）。他们有强壮的肌肉，但是美国有大脑——如果美国选择大脑的话。我是英国人，我们也有同样的问题。让我们来卖思维成果，而不是t恤。

[–]ScarlettailFlorida 
China simply has the capability to adapt faster than us because of their authoritarian political system and massive resource potential. We could try to sell science but China's been doing that for a while already, too. Since the recession, we've essentially become complacent and essentially given up any initiative we once had. China wisely found ways to both expand its influence in the world and be one step ahead of major innovations while the US was in economic withdrawal.

中国有比我们更强的适应能力，就是由于中国的集权政治体制和巨大的资源潜力。我们可以尝试出售科学（成果），但中国也已经这样干了一段时间了。自经济衰退以来，我们基本上已经变得自满，基本上放弃了我们曾经拥有的任何主动性。中国明智地找到了扩大其在世界上的影响力的方法，并在美国经济退出的同时，成为了重大创新领域的领先者。

[–]pornstar-martini   
Agree. You are well informed. I hope the US seizes back the initiative.

赞同。你见多识广。我希望美国找回主动性。

[–]buildabeast 
Not necessarily a bad thing. China’s stated goal is to economic dominance. That will probably be better for the world than America’s “world police” m.o. The Chinese aren’t interested in expanding their system to other countries. They just want to make money.
Especially if you don’t live in America you should welcome waning American influence. Sucks for you guys though.

这并不一定是坏事。中国的明确目标是以经济建设为中心。这对世界来说可能比美国的“世界警察”目标更好。中国人对向其他国家推广他们的体制不感兴趣。他们只是想赚钱。
特别是如果你不生活在美国，你应该欢迎美国影响力的逐渐衰弱。尽管这对你们这些（美国）家伙们来说很糟糕。

[–]eth_rogen 
The Chinese aren’t interested in expanding their system to other countries. They just want to make money.
Very, very wrong. I suggest that you look at how they project their soft power overseas. They actively stifle speech critical of the CCP, even if it means kidnapping dissidents abroad and forcibly repatriating them to China for forced confessions. They disrupt and harass activists for such issues as Falun Gong across the world. They're also more than happy to export their system of government to regimes in southeast Asia. Economics is a tool for them to stifle human rights across the world, doing things like exporting harsh riot control hardware to Maduro in Venezuela, using loans as leverage to extradite Taiwanese citizens to the mainland from Kenya, and punishing Korea for hosting US military hardware. The list in this regard is very, very long.
You talk about the US being the world police, but this is a basic result of an EU completely lacking in hard power. The US is functionally in the position of being the "right arm" of the west, and often finds itself doing the dirty work of an EU that isn't sufficiently advanced in terms of military integration.

“中国人对向其他国家推广他们的体制不感兴趣。他们只是想赚钱”
大错特错。我建议你看看他们是如何在海外投射他们的软实力的。他们积极地压制批评TG的言论，即使这意味着要在国外绑架持不同政见者，并强行将他们遣返中国进行bi供。他们因为诸如轮子一类的问题而在世界各地破坏和骚扰活动分子。他们也非常乐意将他们的政府体制输出到东南亚国家。经济是他们在世界范围内压制人权的工具，他们做一些类诸如向委内瑞拉的马杜罗出口严酷的防暴装备，利用贷款作为手段，将“台湾公民”（译注：原文用Taiwanese citizens）从肯尼亚引渡到中国大陆，并因为部署美国军事装备而惩罚韩国。这种事情说也说不完。
你说美国是世界警察，但这也是因为欧盟完全缺乏硬实力才导致的一种基本结果。从功能上讲，美国是西方的“右臂”，而且经常发现自己在做那些由于欧盟军事一体化方面还不够先进，欧萌无法有效胜任的工作。

[–]MrPoopMonster 
No. As an American this is good for me. It sucks for us that we waste Trillions of dollars maintaining our global status(through force) , when we could be spending that money on Americans, or protecting more immediate foreign interests, like Mexico.
Really, we should completely pull out of the Middle East. Like, remove everything we can move, and sell the rest to the highest bidder. And then we should do the same with our European military assets. Take everything we can back, and sell the rest. Let China, Russia, or the EU handle everything in those regions.
If we took the 6 trillion dollars we spent on the War on Terror, we could have made college free for everyone in America, given stimulus packages to cities in dire need (like Detroit or Baltimore), build renewable energy infrastructure, and probably could have destroyed the cartels and helped Mexico back into the first world.

不。作为一个美国人，（美国退出，让中国当世界警察）对我有好处。我们浪费了数万亿美元来维持我们的全球地位（通过武力），我们本可以把这些钱用在美国人身上，或者保护更直接的国外利益，比如墨西哥，这对我们来说很糟糕。
真的，我们应该完全撤出中东。就像，把我们能带走的东西都带走，然后把剩下的卖给出价最高的人。然后我们也应该对我们的欧洲军事资产做同样的事情。把我们能收回的所有东西都拿回来，然后卖掉剩下的。让中国、俄罗斯或欧盟处理这些地区的一切事务。
如果我们没有把6万亿美元花在反恐战争上，我们就可以让所有美国人免费上大学，给迫切需要的城市（像底特律或巴尔的摩）提供刺激方案，建立可再生能源基础设施，而且说不定已经摧毁了贩毒集团，并帮助墨西哥重新回到第一世界了。

[–]reddit_mind_control  
the chinese system today is closer to nazi Germany than any other country. Yea we should totally welcome it.
1、highly nationalist
2、one party authoritarian
3、socialist party control over key industries
4、based solely around the chinese ethnicity
5、control over media, culture, to promote fatherhood, baby making, and chinese culture. All subversive influences like hip hop banned.
6、belief in social Darwinism, racial IQ differences, and other taboo ideas in the west. Nobody here really knows just how conservative/racist countries in Asia are. I live there and its hilarious. If only you knew.
The chinese look out for the chinese. They could give a rats ass about the rest of the world. Is that who you want to be the global leader?

今天的中国体制比其他任何国家都更接近小胡子德国。是的，我们应该完全欢迎它。
1、高度的民族主义
2、一党毒菜
3、社会主义政党对关键产业的控制
4、完全基于中国种族
5、控制媒体，文化，促进父权，制造婴儿和中国文化。所有破坏性的影响都被禁止了，比如嘻哈文化。
6、对社会达尔文主义、种族智商差异以及其他在西方被禁止的观念的信仰。这里没有人真正知道亚洲国家究竟有多么保守/种族主义。我住在那里，它很滑稽。如果只有你知道。
中国人相互提防。他们可能会把世界其他地方搞得一团糟。你想让谁成为全球领导者？

[–]buildabeast 
Yeah that’s a totally balanced and not at all biased view of the situation! 
1、it’s less nationalist than the US. Their military isn’t worshiped like heros like they are in America, and people never say stuff like “I’m proud to be Chinese” or “China is the greatest country in the world”
2、It’s also one of the most efficient systems in the world, for example in the city I live in they are tripling the size of the subway system and only taking 1 year to do so. That would be impossible in a western democracy.
3、Not a problem. Actually benefits the majority of people by keeping costs low.
4、That’s just not true, it’s not the CPCs fault that the vast majority of the country is Han, it’s just the reality.
5、They banned hip hop on state run television. It’s influences are still all over the place. Western media blew that “ban” totally out of proportion. Western TV is hugely popular here. The only government control is on the internet and are easily bypassed with little fear of getting in trouble.
6、I live in China. I doubt you do because you seem to not understand what it’s actually like living here.

不是的，中国的体制是完全平衡的，和对这种情况的所有偏见根本不沾边！ 
1、它不像美国那么民族主义。他们的军队不像在美国那样受到英雄般的崇拜，而且人们从不（到处）说“我很自豪能成为中国人”或者“中国是世界上最伟大的国家”之类的话。
2、它也是世界上最高效的体制之一，例如在我居住的城市，他们仅花了1年的时间就将地铁系统的面积扩大了两倍。这在西方民主国家是不可能坐到的。
3、这不是问题。实际上，（国有产业）通过保持低成本，反而使大多数人受益。
4、这不是真实的状况，这不是TG的错，因为这个国家的绝大多数都是汉族人，这就是现实。
5、他们禁止在国家电视台播放嘻哈音乐。它的影响仍然无处存在。西方媒体远远夸大了这一“禁令”。西方电视节目在这里非常受欢迎。政府唯一的控制是在互联网上，造成的影响微乎其微，几乎不用担心会有麻烦。
6、我生活在中国。我怀疑你这么想，是因为你似乎不明白生活在这里是究竟感受如何。

[–]FewYogurt
Chinese people definitely have a "China is the greatest country/longest living civilization and we have to rise to make it great" cultural thinking, it's also ingrained in school. I spent a lot of time in India, Malaysia and China, the post you replied to is hyperbolic but not really off the mark. Your response has many outright denials of obvious things.

中国人肯定有一种“中国是世界上最伟大的国家/最长寿的文明，我们必须崛起使它伟大”的文化思想，它在学校也根深蒂固。我在印度、马来西亚和中国待了很长时间，你的回复夸张，但并不是很离谱。你的回复中对很多明显的事物都给予了否认。

[–]buildabeast  
I’ve lived here for awhile and the closest I’ve ever heard is “we have the longest continuous written history”. It’s much more common to hear people saying good things about the west than saying China is the best. There’s a different between being proud of your culture and being jingoistic. People hold Chinese people to an impossible standard.

我在这里住了一段时间，我所听到的和你的帖子最接近的说法是“我们拥有最长的连续的成文史”。听到人们说西方怎么好的频率比听到说中国是最好的要高得多。对自己的文化感到自豪和沙文主义是有区别的。人们把中国人置于一个不现实的标准之上。

[–]reddit_mind_control 
I live there
and yes all of those things are true. Socialism with chinese characteristics is national socialism.
probably why they are so successful.
1、lmao sure. Yes the red army is worshipped as heroes. All kids study it as well as all of their historical figures. They memorize the stuff. You have to have blinders on not to see how nationalist the country is. Every kid does military training when they are in middle school.
2、Yea, Nazi Germany was also one of the most efficient systems in the world, particularly when rebuilding after turmoil.
3、see above.
4、America is majority white, and so is Europe. Not their fault either. Although that doesnt stop leftists from turning that into a negative and something to be remedied. Seems like whites are more beloved in China than in their home nations. Where are the drives for China to be more diverse? Nobody cares because leftists are focused on destroying white nations. Chinese would laugh in your face if you tried that shit here.
5、The biggest thing I noticed when I first moved here was the emphasis in all media towards fatherhood and families. In the west those things are demonized and mocked. Here they are promoted. Another thing the Nazis were well known for. Not saying its a bad thing though. Just highlights the weakness of a free press. Its free to degrade a society with poisonous morals.
6、I understand what its like to live there. Been doing so for 5 years. I'm not judging them, because in all honestly a system like theirs is the only way to keep the country together. It may in the end prove more effective than western democracies. I'm merely pointing out the reality and the value differences to our left wing friends here. All of the criticisms of America as being racist, too right wing, etc. lmao. If only they knew.

我住在那里
是的，所有这些都是真的。中国特色社会主义就是国jia社会主义。
这可能就是他们如此成功的原因。
1、哈哈，我确定。是的，红军被崇拜为英雄。所有的孩子都学习他们，就像其他的历史人物一样。他们铭记这些人。你除非戴个眼罩，才会看不到这个国家有多么的民族主义。所有孩子在上中学的时候都要接受军训。
2、是的，小胡子德国也是世界上最高效的体制之一，特别是在混乱之后重建的时候。
3、见第2点。
4、美国主体是白人，欧洲也是如此。不是他们的错。尽管这并不能阻止左派人士将其转化为某种负面的现象，并要求加以纠正。白人似乎在中国比在他们自己国家还受欢迎。中国更加多样化的动力在哪里？没有人在意，因为左派人士一心要摧毁白人国家。如果你试着在中国干这种事，中国人会狠狠嘲笑你。
5、当我第一次搬到这里时，我注意到的最重要的事情是所有媒体对父权和家庭的强调。在西方，这些东西被妖魔化和嘲笑。在这里他们却推广——这也是小胡子主义的另一个众所周知的特征。不过，这并不是说这是件坏事。只是凸显了自由媒体的缺乏。中国能够随心所欲地用“道德败坏”来贬低某个社会团体。
6、我知道住在那里是什么感觉。我已经住了5年了。我不是在评判他们，因为老实说，像他们这样的体制是保持国家团结的唯一途径。最终，它可能比西方民主国家更高效。我只是指出了现实情况和我们这里的左翼朋友们的价值差异。所有对美国的批评都是种族主义，太右翼了，等等。呵呵，如果他们知道这些就好了。

[–]FabulousHobo
I’m an American. And there is nothing about our administration or government in general that makes me want us calling the shots on a global scale.

我是一个美国人。总的来说，我们的政府和政府并没有让我想要我们在全球范围内发号施令。

[–]naanandcurry123  
China is a way more responsible superpower for two reasons: it does not really believe in getting in endless constant wars and military operations like the US does and secondly it provides aid and economic development to poorer nations without lecturing them about their political systems. China also has way more competent and intelligent leaders, a Trump style pol in China is not possible. China also has a culture that values education and hard work and family, something the US does not

中国是一个更负责任的超级大国，原因有二：它并不像美国那样热衷于发动无休止的战争和军事行动；其次，它向较贫穷的国家提供援助，帮它们经济发展，却不对他们的政治体制进行说教。中国还有能力更强、更明智的领导人，在中国，是不可能出现特朗普式的政治人物的。中国还有一种重视教育、努力工作和家庭的文化，这是美国所不具备的

[–]The_MagicCalifornia 
China also doesn't have any democratic institutions and no concept of free speech. They also don't have a fair judiciary so the government is free to execute protestors as long as international reporters can't prove it.
Definitely a great example for the rest of the world.

中国也没有任何民主制度，也没有言论自由的概念。他们也没有公正的司法系统，所以只要国际报道无法证明，政府就可以自由地处jue抗议者。
对于世界其他国家来说，绝对是个好榜样。

[–]naanandcurry123 
And the US has good democratic institutions? Is that why a moron like Trump can become PResident when he doesn't even win the popular vote, or you have gerrymandering permitting the GOP to control Congress even when they don't win the most votes?
Whenever americans discuss China all teh can whine about is free speech and democracy. maybe look at the US and see its not even democratic before whining about China.
Oh and how is the US doing with executions and imprisoning its population? Or torturing people, or holding them in Gitmo with no charges for almost 20 years now?

那么美国就有很好的民主制度了？这就是为什么像特朗普这样的白痴在他甚至都没有赢得多数选票的情况下就能成为总统，或者你们有不公正的选取划分，允许共和党在未赢得多数选票的情况下就控制了国会？
每当美国人讨论中国的时候，所有他们能抱怨的都是言论自由和民主。也许看看美国，在抱怨中国之前，（会发现）甚至它自己都不民主。
哦，再看看美国是如何执行死刑和监禁自己的国民的？要么虐待他们，要么在没有罪名的情况下把他们关在关塔那摩监狱近20年？

[–]The_MagicCalifornia  
Nice whataboutism. I never said the U.S is perfect but if nothing else, Trump shows that even when the government hates a candidate they don't intervene if he wins under their rules.
And ya, the U.S executes people but China is on a whole different level. So no, the crimes of the U.S are not comparable to China.

漂亮的whatabout主义（译注：互相比烂），我从来没有说过美国是完美的，但最起码，特朗普能显示出即使政府讨厌这个参选人，但如果他按照竞选规则赢得了大选，政府也不会出手干预。
而且，对，美国也有死刑，但和中国完全不在同一个层面上。所以美国的罪犯和中国的没有可比性。

[–]naanandcurry123 
Have you even been to China? Americans have such a black and white view of China and the rest of the world. Its hilarious they whine about democracy, executions, jailing ppl, Tibet. Meanwhile the US does the same or worse shit all over the world. At least China minds its own business and doesnt kill hundreds of thousands in bullshit wars thousands of miles away

你去过中国吗？美国人对中国和世界其他国家的看法是如此的非黑即白。他们对民主、死刑、囚犯、西藏的抱怨很可笑。与此同时，美国却在世界各地做着同样或更糟糕的事情。至少中国是在想着自己的事情，也不会跑在千里之外的地方屠杀成千上万的人。

[–]Skyrick 
When the world is looking at what our freedoms brought us, it is easier to sell people the idea that those freedoms are unimportant. Trump was able to sell racist ideals through free speech. FOX news has sold that global warming isn’t an issue through free speech. The cost of free speech has been high in the US, and I don’t know if others looking at our example would necessarily want to follow us knowing that.

当全世界都在关注我们的自由能带给我们什么的时候，向人们兜售那些自由不重要的观点就更加容易。特朗普能够通过言论自由兜售种族主义理想。福克斯新闻已经说过，全球变暖不是一个通过言论自由的问题。在美国，言论自由的代价是很高的，我不知道其他把我们作为样例来关注的国家，是不是想效仿我们学到那个教训。

[–]The_MagicCalifornia 
Having a joke like Trump make decisions is preferable to being thrown in prison for criticizing the government.

讲个笑话：让特朗普做决策比把批评政府的人关进监狱更好。

[–]M00n[S] 
It would hurt our economy and China would get to control the narrative. China is corrupt, and with the power to influence other nations we would be in trouble.

这将损害我们的经济，而中国将会掌控话语权。中国是fu败的，它拥有影响其他国家的能力，我们会有麻烦的。

[–]zorblatt9 
China is corrupt, and with the power to influence other nations we would be in trouble.
Outside of America:
America is corrupt, and with the power to influence other nations we would be in trouble.

“中国是fu败的，它拥有影响其他国家的能力，我们会有麻烦的”
美国之外的看法：
“美国是fu败的，它拥有影响其他国家的能力，我们会有麻烦的”

[–]PizzusChrist 
Having the global reserve currency is a nice perk. The dominance of the USD is a really good reason to bear that burden.

拥有全球储备货币是一项不错的福利。美元的主导地位是承担这一重担的一个很好的理由。

[–]Spanktank35  
Am Aussie, I would rather make a deal with China by far. They would respect the deal and respect us. Its a shame considering Obama had so much respect from me.

我是澳大利亚人，眼下我宁愿与中国达成协议。他们会尊重协议并尊重我们。考虑到奥巴马对我如此尊敬，这真是太丢脸了。

[–]Buttcrack_Splitter 
And what does your "respect" do? does australia make a deal based on your "respect"?, some random internet guy "respect" is worth much less than a fart that come out during your morning shit

你说的“尊重”是什么？澳大利亚是否根据你的“尊重”来达成协议？某些路人网友“尊重”的价值比你早上大号时排除的甲烷气体还要低得多。

[–]Spanktank35  
Respect means countries turn to you for leadership and are more cooperative. Right now a lot of big deals are being made without you since it isn't worth the hassle or risk.
Not to mention, Americans like you pissing off citizens like me makes it unpopular to work with you. So yes, Australia does make deals based on its population's respect. That really shouldn't be a question?
Trump is going back on deals and spilling intelligence heck your country isn't even trustworthy anymore.

尊重意味着各国向你寻求领导，并更加合作。现在，很多大宗交易都是在没有你们的情况下进行的，因为它不值得承担麻烦或风险。
更不用说，像你这样的美国人，对像我这样的公民羞辱嘲讽，这种做法让你们不受欢迎。所以，是的，澳大利亚确实是根据人民的尊重来达成交易的。这真的不应该成为一个问题吗？
特朗普正在反悔交易，泄露情报，见鬼，你们的国家已经不再值得信任了。

[–]ftjlster 
Got to say, I've been wondering how much how world leaders feel about Trump might be affecting their willingness to start or continue trade negotiations with the US.

我想说的是，我一直在想，世界各国领导人对特朗普的看法，在多大程度上可能会影响他们开启或继续与美国进行贸易谈判的意愿。

[–]NyetFlexAndShill 
We surrendered that back in 1993 when Clinton signed the China Trade Agreement. Between that and NAFTA, we shipped manufacturing and farming overseas and across borders from rural America and effectively killed that demographic and turned it into what it is today to maximize corporate profits.

我们在1993年克林顿签署了与中国的贸易协定时就已经把世界推向了中国。在此之后和北美自贸协定达成之前，我们将制造业和农业从美国农村地区转移到了海外，并有效地消灭了这一人群，并将其转化为今天的企业利润最大化

[–]555-1234  
Everyone hated the TPP, and it had its flaws, but it was better than the alternative- handing the next generation of economic power to China. Which Trump was eager to do.

每个人都讨厌TPP，它也有自己的缺点，但它比另一种选择要好——把下一代的经济实力交给中国。特朗普就迫不及待地要这样做。

[–]awful_neutralTennessee  
When did American hegemony suddenly become cool again? Is it because it's the perceived opposite of Trump's direction?
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that China becoming a more dominant force on the global stage is a good thing, but I don't think America's "world police" is a force of good either. I thought that was just a given after endless disasters in both the Cold War era and the current conflicts in the Middle East.
I don't think it's unfair for Americans to be growing tired of the burden that comes with the title, or for people across the world to be tired of us shoving our finger in the pot. Obviously Trump isn't the answer, and hasn't handled this problem well at al.

美国霸权什么时候突然变酷了？是因为这是与特朗普的方向相反的吗？
不要误解我的意思，我不认为中国在全球舞台上成为一股主导力量是件好事，但我也不认为美国的“世界警察”身份就是一股正义的力量。我认为，这只是冷战时期和中东当前冲突不断的灾难之后的一种既定的安排。
我认为美国人越来越厌倦这个标题中夹杂的负担是很公平的，或者说世界各地的人们都厌倦了我们把手伸到他们的锅里。很明显特朗普不是答案，也根本没有处理好这个问题。

[–]OddScience 
Because the dumbasses don't realize that America's wealth is propped up based on that. You don't give that up without giving up a lot of other shit and the morons haven't figured that out yet. There's also no take backsies and there's very long term consequences to what will happen. If another nation takes that mantle, you can't just undo it or change your mind later.
I wish someone would smack each and every one of the idiots with a history book. Very hard. America's rise to power happened because at that time all the other large nations destroyed themselves in war. America profited off of that war, took that money and ran away with it. They established strong footholds that enabled them to get great global trade deals.
Things like rebuilding Japan wasn't so much for them as it was for us. All that bullshit in the Middle East was also for us. Did you forget? We started shit there so we could get money. UN? Built for us. NATO? built for us. They were mechanisms established so US could maintain power on an international stage.
Seeing people trying to destroy those things because they're too stupid.

因为这些愚蠢的人没有意识到美国的财富是建立在美国的地位之上的。你要是放弃它，你还得放弃很多其他的东西，而那些笨蛋还没有意识到这一点。也没有什么倒退，而且未来结果如何还要很长时间才能看到。如果另一个国家接过了这个重任，你就不能在以后按ctrl+z或者反悔了。
我希望有人会拿一本历史书来反驳每一个白痴。狠狠地反驳。美国的崛起之所以会发生，是因为当时所有其他大国都在战争中毁灭了自己。美国从那场战争中获利，拿走了那笔钱，然后就带着它走人。他们建立了牢固的立足点，使他们能够掌控巨大的全球贸易协议。
像重建日本这样的事情对他们来说并不像对我们来说那么重要。中东的那些JB事都是为我们的利益服务的。你忘记了吗？我们开始在那里搅shi，然后我们能从中获利。联合国？是为我们而设的。北约？是为我们而设的。它们是建立起来的机制，这样美国就能在国际舞台上维持权力。
看到人们在试图摧毁这些东西，原因是他们太愚蠢了。

[–]PizzusChrist  
It'll take a decade to repair the damage to the State Department. It'll take another to re-enforce the Monroe doctrine. US power has persistently grown since WWII and for the first time since FDR we are a weaker nation internationally.
Trump's legacy will be a skid mark on the Oval Office. Absolute fucking disgrace of a President.

修复对国务院的损害需要十年的时间。而要重新执行门罗主义还要再花10年时间。自二战以来，美国的实力一直在增长，而现在，自罗斯福总统以来，我们第一次成为在国际上较弱的国家。
特朗普的政治遗产将成为总统办公室的一个“滑痕”。总统的绝对耻辱。

[–]WinterTeaching 
Monroe doctrine.
This is why China wins. American unilateral hegemony will no longer pass. The US wants to dominate and control, China is looking for partnerships.

“门罗主义”
这就是中国获胜的原因。美国的单边霸权将不复存在。美国想要主导和控制，而中国正在寻找合作伙伴。

[–]Tombot3000   
China is not looking for partnerships. They're adopting the guise of partnerships while working towards domination and control. It doesn't take long to see that any time they alhave the opportunity to, they attempt to control their "partners."

中国并不是在寻找合作伙伴。他们以伙伴关系为伪装，以控制为目的。用不了多久你就能看到，他们就会有机会去控制自己的“合作伙伴”。

[–]tat3179 
As far as I am concerned, all major powers will attempt to dominate and control at some point, including the US. At the very least, I am not expecting Chinese drones looking for Muslim terrorist anytime soon.

就我个人而言，所有主要大国都将试图在某一时刻支配和控制，包括美国。至少，我不认为中国无人机很快就会去寻找穆斯林恐怖分子（承担起反恐的职责）。

[–]SnowflakeMod  
At the very least, I am not expecting Chinese drones looking for Muslim terrorist anytime soon.
Then you know little to nothing about Chinese history. You should start reading about how they treat their own muslim minority, then reuate how you think they will treat them in countries from which China is extracting resources.

“至少，我不认为中国无人机很快就会去寻找穆斯林恐怖分子（承担起反恐的职责）”
那你对中国的历史一无所知。你应该开始阅读他们如何对待自己的穆斯林少数民族，然后重新评估你认为他们将如何对待他们正在获取资源的国家的那些穆斯林。

[–]tat3179   
Oh, I have been reading a lot about Chinese history. My country was practically existed because of China.
Put it this way. China never conquered SEA like the Europeans do. Sure, they demand tribute and that they acknowledge that China is top dog in the world, there never have been Chinese troops invading and imposing Confucianism onto countries.
I assure you, living next to that giant we have plenty of historical dealings with them.
And about the Uighurs that is my point about China, the Muslims don't really give a fuck. Just a couple of days the Muslims in my country decided to send back Uighurs that escaped Thailand back to China on their request. They never protested like they way they protest against you about treatment of Muslims.
See, in the end, what China does within its borders are their business. China never invaded Iraq, never invade Afghanistan. Simple as that. You may not like what I say, but that is the truth.

哦，我读了很多关于中国历史的书。，我的国家是因为中国才在事实上经存在的。
这么说吧。中国从来没有像欧洲人那样征服海洋。当然，他们要求贡品，他们承认中国是世界上最NB的国家，中国军队从来没有入侵并把儒家思想强加于别的国家。
我向你保证，住在那个巨人旁边会给我们带来和他们的很多历史交易。
关于维吾尔人，我对中国的看法是，穆斯林并不是真的不在乎。就在几天前，我国的穆斯林决定把逃到泰国的维吾尔人遣返回中国。他们从不以他们抗议你对待穆斯林的那种方式抗议中国。
看吧，到头来，中国在其境内所做的事情就是他们的家事。中国从来没有入侵过伊拉克，从来没有入侵过阿富汗。就这么简单。你可能不喜欢我说的话，但那是事实。

[–]SnowflakeMod 
See, in the end, what China does within its borders are their business.
Until they start exporting the same treatment overseas. If you are sufficiently naive to believe they will treat foreigners who threaten their economic interests better than their own citizens, I can only shake my head.

“看吧，到头来，中国在其境内所做的事情就是他们的家事”
直到他们开始向海外输出同样的对待（穆斯林的）方式。如果你足够天真地相信，他们会对待那些威胁他们经济利益的外国人比对待他们自己的公民更友善，我只能摇头。

[–]tat3179 
As far as I am concerned, an Iraqi, Syrian, Yemeni or peoples from MENA countries have nothing to fear from China's drones. The Yemenis however, have many many reasons to fear US ones.
Of course, if you are a dissident in China, well, you have all the reasons to fear. I mean, being Swedish will not protect you, of course. But then again, if you know the dangers, you should have gotten the fuck out in the first place. After all, democractic dissidents not in China are hardly molested.
In the end, my point applies, what China does within its borders is still China's business. You may not like it, but that is the fact. However, if you can show proof on cases where China militarily invades an African country for whatever reasons, perhaps we can talk seriously.

就我个人而言，来自中东和北非地区的伊拉克、叙利亚、也门或人民对中国的无人机没有什么可担心的。然而，也门人有很多理由害怕美国。
当然，如果你是中国国内的持不同政见者，那么你就有理由害怕了。我的意思是，瑞典人的身份保护不了你。但话又说回来，如果你知道这些危险，你一开始就应该离开那里。毕竟，中国之外的民主异见人士几乎没有被骚扰。
最后，我的观点是，中国在其境内所做的事情仍然是中国的事情。你可能不喜欢它，但这是事实。然而，如果你能证明中国以某种理由军事入侵了某个非洲国家，或许我们可以严肃地讨论这个问题。

[–]SnowflakeMod 
Of course, if you are a dissident in China, well, you have all the reasons to fear... But then again, if you know the dangers, you should have gotten the fuck out in the first place.
Or China could become civilized.
However, if you can show proof on cases where China militarily invades an African country for whatever reasons, perhaps we can talk seriously.
Lol, get ready!

“当然，如果你是中国国内的持不同政见者，那么你就有理由害怕了。我的意思是，瑞典人的身份保护不了你。但话又说回来，如果你知道这些危险，你一开始就应该离开那里”
中国也可以变成文明国家（为什么必须是离开中国）。
“然而，如果你能证明中国以某种理由军事入侵了某个非洲国家，或许我们可以严肃地讨论这个问题”
呵呵，中国已经做准备了！

[–]tat3179 
Or China could become civilized.
See, this kind of attitude just make people pissed off with the US and the West. Especially when it is spoken off Trump's mouth. "We westerners are superior and with civilization. You other inferior nations must listen to us or you are uncivilized barbarians. China, let go of Tibet". And people like you wonder why in Reddit there are so many Chinese nationals practically give you the finger whenever you moan about China.
As for your article, I call that smart use of power. Instead of drones and boots on the ground, they could topple governments by economics and influence alone. Something the US could do long time ago. Now, you rely more on dumb brute force.

“中国也可以变成文明国家”
看，这种态度只会让人们对美国和西方感到愤怒。尤其是当它从特朗普的嘴里说出来的时候。“我们西方人更优秀，更文明。你们这些低等的民族必须听我们的，否则你们就是不文明的野蛮人。中国，放开西藏”。像你这样的人想知道为什么在红迪网上有这么多中国公民，在你抱怨中国的时候，他们会向你竖中指。
至于你的文章，我称之为对力量的巧妙应用。他们可以用经济和影响力来推翻政府，而不是用无人机和地面部队。美国很久以前就能做的事情。现在，你更依赖于愚蠢的蛮力。

[–]SnowflakeMod   
Especially when it is spoken off Trump's mouth.
Yeah, we hate Trump because he acts too much like a Chinese official, criticizing free press, looking at global trade competitively, etc.
You other inferior nations must listen to us or you are uncivilised barbarians.
You are uncivilized if you torture people who criticize your weak government. We hope, eventually, you will learn enough to become a nineteenth century power. Those people do not deserve to be brutally punished just for wanting a better life and a government that has a shred of respect for their lives. Those people are moral heroes and the CCP is uncivilized for torturing them.

“尤其是当它从特朗普的嘴里说出来的时候”
是的，我们讨厌特朗普，因为他表现得太像一个中国官员，批评自由媒体，用竞争性的眼光看待全球贸易，等等。
“你们这些低等的民族必须听我们的，否则你们就是不文明的野蛮人”
如果你们折磨那些批评你们虚弱政府的人，你们就是不文明的。我们希望，最终，你将会学到足够的知识，成为一个19世纪的强国。这些人不应该因为想要过上更好的生活而受到残酷的惩罚，也不应该有这么一个对他们的生活只有一丝尊重的政府。这些人是道德英雄，而TG对他们的折磨是不文明的。

[–]tat3179 
You are uncivilized if you torture people who criticize your weak government. We hope, eventually, you will learn enough to become a nineteenth century power. Those people do not deserve to be brutally punished just for wanting a better life and a government that has a shred of respect for their lives. Those people are moral heroes and the CCP is uncivilized for torturing them.
Yes. Continue to lecture over them. Continue to belittle them. I am sure you are going to change a lot minds this way. It may be a very bitter pill for you to swallow, but you do realise that for the vast majority of Chinese there, the CCP enjoys very high popular support, usual grumbles about the government aside, and particular resent Western peoples calling them and their governnment "uncivilised".

“如果你们折磨那些批评你们虚弱政府的人，你们就是不文明的。我们希望，最终，你将会学到足够的知识，成为一个19世纪的强国。这些人不应该因为想要过上更好的生活而受到残酷的惩罚，也不应该有这么一个对他们的生活只有一丝尊重的政府。这些人是道德英雄，而TG对他们的折磨是不文明的”
是的。继续对他们进行说教。继续贬低他们。我相信你会以这种方式改变很多人的想法。对你来说可能不想看到这个事实，但你确实意识到，对于绝大多数中国人来说，撇开对政府的一般性抱怨不谈，TG享有很高的民意支持，而且他们尤其不满西方国家称他们和他们的政府“不文明”。

[–]SnowflakeMod
I am sure you are going to change a lot minds this way.
I am not trying to change minds. I am telling the truth. Weak governments torturing people for wanting better lives is vile. If you support it, or support governments that do it, you belong in the eighteenth century. That is the bottom line.
It may be a very bitter pill for you to swallow, but you do realise that for the vast majority of Chinese there, the CCP enjoys very high popular support, usual grumbles about the government aside, and particular resent Western peoples calling them and their governnment "uncivilised".
It is bitter for the torture victims, but one day they will be free and China will have a legitimate government.

“我相信你会以这种方式改变很多人的想法”
我并不是在试图改变人们的想法。我说的是实话。虚弱的政府折磨追求更好的生活的人是可耻的。如果你支持它，或者支持那些这么做的政府，你就活在18世纪。这是底线。
“对你来说可能不想看到这个事实，但你确实意识到，对于绝大多数中国人来说，撇开对政府的一般性抱怨不谈，TG享有很高的民意支持，而且他们尤其不满西方国家称他们和他们的政府‘不文明’”
对酷刑受害者来说，这是痛苦的，但总有一天他们会重获自由，并且中国将有一个合法的政府。

[–]tat3179 
I am not trying to change minds. I am telling the truth. Weak governments torturing people for wanting better lives is vile. If you support it, or support governments that do it, you belong in the eighteenth century. That is the bottom line.
Dunno about living in the 18th century. But during the times I visited China, they sure are living in the 21st.
It is bitter for the torture victims, but one day they will be free and China will have a legitimate government.
That is like your opinion, man, and I frankly doubt you are a PRC citizen...

“我并不是在试图改变人们的想法。我说的是实话。虚弱的政府折磨追求更好的生活的人是可耻的。如果你支持它，或者支持那些这么做的政府，你就活在18世纪。这是底线”
我不知道生活在18世纪的情况。但在我走访中国的时候，他们过得肯定是21世纪的生活。
“对酷刑受害者来说，这是痛苦的，但总有一天他们会重获自由，并且中国将有一个合法的政府”
这听起来像你个人的观点，伙计，而且坦率地讲，我怀疑你不是中华人民共和国公民……

[–]SnowflakeMod   
But during the times I visited China, they sure are living in the 21st.
Legitimate governments and educated people outgrew torturing dissidents in the nineteenth century. If it's still happening, your country is uncivilized, archaic and two-hundred or so years behind the US.
That is like your opinion, man, and I frankly doubt you are a PRC citizen...
Of course I am not. If I were a PRC citizen, I would be arrested and tortured for typing that.

“但在我走访中国的时候，他们过得肯定是21世纪的生活”
在19世纪，合法的政府和受过教育的人在折磨持不同政见者的过程中成长起来。如果这种情况还出现（在中国），那你的国家就是不文明、陈旧的，落后于美国的两百年左右。
“这听起来像你个人的观点，伙计，而且坦率地讲，我怀疑你不是中华人民共和国公民……”
我当然不是。如果我是中华人民共和国公民，我就会因为发了这些话而被逮捕和折磨。

[–]tat3179 
Legitimate governments and educated people outgrew torturing dissidents in the nineteenth century. If it's still happening, your country is uncivilized, archaic and two-hundred or so years behind the US.
MY country? Oh my....I am not from the PRC. I am just a outside observer telling you what I see. China has somewhat different values from people like you, but you know what, I have not heard something as arrogant as you as calling others "uncivilised".
But you know what, keep beating that wall with your head. It changes nothing and I assure you, many people don't see what you see, because the world doesn't revolve around "western values", really.
Of course I am not. If I were a PRC citizen, I would be arrested and tortured for typing that.
More likely you get post deleted by some mods. That is all. China is not North Korea, not even close, and their people bitch online all the time about the government. That is a fact.

“在19世纪，合法的政府和受过教育的人在折磨持不同政见者的过程中成长起来。如果这种情况还出现（在中国），这个国家就是不文明、陈旧的，落后于美国的两百年左右”
我的国家？哦，我的……我不是来自中华人民共和国。我只是一个旁观者，在告诉你我所看到的。中国和你这样的人有不同的价值观，但你知道吗，我没有听到像你这样傲慢的人说别人是“不文明的”。
但是你知道吗，用你的头继续撞墙。它什么也没改变，我向你保证，很多人看不到你看到的东西，因为这个世界真的并不以“西方价值观”为中心的。
“我当然不是。如果我是中华人民共和国公民，我就会因为发了这些话而被逮捕和折磨”
听起来更像你的一些帖子因为某些插件被删掉了。仅此而已。中国不是朝鲜，甚至不像朝鲜，他们的人民一直在网上对政府发牢骚。事实就是如此。

[–]SnowflakeMod 
MY country? Oh my....I am not from the PRC.
Your is a common English usage, my bad if I was unclear, but it's a general statement because China is not the only offending country. China's ally, North Korea, also tortures dissidents.
China has somewhat different values from people like you, but you know what, I have not heard something as arrogant as you as calling others "uncivilised"... many people don't see what you see, because the world doesn't revolve around "western values", really.
There is no difference in values that justifies torturing dissidents. Only the difference is between human values and uncivilized, illegitimate government. Torturing dissidents is more fitting of archaic forms of government, like monarchy or empire, happily relegated to the past in civilized countries.
More likely you get post deleted by some mods. That is all. China is not North Korea, not even close, and their people bitch online all the time about the government. That is a fact.
Unless you are arrested for internet posts criticizing government corruption.

“我的国家？哦，我的……我不是来自中华人民共和国”
你的英语水平一般般，如果说错了是我没搞清楚，但这是一个笼统的说法，因为中国并不是唯一具有冒犯行为的国家。中国的盟友朝鲜也在折磨持不同政见者。
“中国和你这样的人有不同的价值观，但你知道吗，我没有听到像你这样傲慢的人说别人是‘不文明的’。但是你知道吗，用你的头继续撞墙。它什么也没改变，我向你保证，很多人看不到你看到的东西，因为这个世界真的并不以“西方价值观”为中心的”
就折磨异见者而言不存在价值观上的区别。唯一的区别在于人类的价值观和不文明的、不合法的政府之间。折磨持不同政见者更符合古老的政府形式，如君主制或帝国，而在文明国家中这已愉快地成为过去。
“听起来更像你的一些帖子因为某些插件被删掉了。仅此而已。中国不是朝鲜，甚至不像朝鲜，他们的人民一直在网上对政府发牢骚。事实就是如此”
除非你因为网络帖子批评政府腐败而被捕（译注：新闻链接）

[–]Tombot3000   
That's whataboutism mixed with a lack of understanding that there are different degrees of attempting to control others. France and Russia both attempt to influence Europe, but the methods and motives for each are different.
Your cherry picked example is just showing one side. I could easily reply with "At the very least, I'm not expecting the USA to build military installations in other countries waters without their permission."

这是混杂了对“试图控制他人的程度是不同的” 不理解的“whatabout主义”。法国和俄罗斯都试图影响欧洲，但它们的方法和动机各不相同。
你的主观选择性的例子只是展示了一个方面。我可以很容易地回答：“起码，我不指望美国在未经当事国允许的情况下在其他国家的水域建造军事设施。”

[–]tat3179   
Interesting that you deem historical facts as "whataboutism". Also, the actions of France and Russia doesn't just "attempt to influence Europe", unless you deem Syria, the stans, Mali and Francophone African states "Europe".
The US did build military installations in other countries without their permission. I didn't recall the Taliban or god knows who else in charge or Saddam gave the US military permission to build bases there.

有趣的是，你把历史事实看成“whatabout主义”。此外，法国和俄罗斯的行为不仅仅是“试图影响欧洲”，除非你认为叙利亚、施坦斯、马里和法语非洲国家是“欧洲”。
美国的确在未经允许的情况下在其他国家建造了军事设施。我不记得塔利班还是上帝知道还有谁负责任，还是萨达姆，允许美国军方在那里建立了基地。

[–]Tombot3000   
If you want to compare with other countries, look at their circumstances, norms of the time, and so on.
My example wasn't to say influencing Europe is the only thing those countries do -- it's pointing out that two countries can have the same goal but different methods and motives.
The examples you're giving are wartime temporary forward bases that were removed when requested by the re-formed government. That's significantly different from simply taking over part of a country you're not at war with and staying there despite their protests.

如果你想和其他国家比较，就要看看他们的实际情况，时间的标准，等等。
我的例子并不是说影响欧洲是这些国家唯一做的事情——而在于指出，两个国家可以有相同的目标，但方法和动机不同。
你所举的例子是战时临时的前线基地，它们后来在重新组建的政府的要求下被移除了。这与简单地接管一个你没有与之开战的国家，并在他们的抗议下呆在那里的情况有很大的不同。

[–]Kiyasu 
Maybe not over the middle east, but western China over their Muslim populations? Wouldn't doubt it in another few years.
It's not like China hasn't been attacking it's own ethnic Muslim minorities over the last few years, there's always another crackdown, always more rules. If they're willing to run over Han protesters in the capital of China with tanks why on Earth would they not use drones if they felt it was needed? I wouldn't bet money on China not using drones on people in the near future.
Don't get me wrong, it's behaviors the US already shows, I'm just not buying the Chinese PR just because they've got a better message, the same guys that will kill their own civilians rather than give up any power are still there, still ruling.

也许不是在中东（反穆斯林），而是中国西部的穆斯林人口呢？我不会怀疑在未来的几年里这种情况就会发生。
这并不像中国在过去几年里没有攻击自己的穆斯林少数民族，一直都存在另一种镇压，总是有更多的（针对性）规则。如果他们愿意在中国的首都用水柜压汉族抗议者，那凭什么他们就不会在觉得有必要的情况下使用无人机呢？我不会赌中国不会在不久的将来对人们使用无人机。
不要误解我的意思，这是美国已经展示的行为，我只是不买中国对外宣传的帐，只是因为他们已经传递了更明确的信息，那些同样的宁愿消灭自己公民也不愿放弃任何权力的人，仍然在那里，仍然统治着。

[–]tat3179 
In the end, what they do in their borders is their business. You may not like it, I may not like it, but it is their country. You may not like Tibet is now an integral part of China, so what? That is the defacto fact of life. What matters is how China treats other sovereign states through its history. The fact now that they have the ability to supplant you in countries where you left speaks volumes.
Harping on Tibet or West China changes nothing. Fact is, no one really gives a fuck what China does within its borders. Take that bookkeeper kidnapping case for instance, will the EU going to brake off ties with China just because Sweden is pissed off? Nope.

说到底，他们在自己边境线以内怎么做那是他们的家事。你可能不喜欢它，我可能不喜欢它，但它是他们的国家（我们管不着）。你可能不喜欢西藏现在是中国不可分割的一部分，那又怎样？这就是现实生活中的事实。重要的是中国如何对待其他主权国家的历史。他们有能力在你们离开的国家取代你们这一事实已经重分说明了问题。
对西藏或中国西部叽叽喳喳改变不了任何事实。事实是，没有人真正在乎中国在其境内所做的事情。以逮捕书店老板事件为例，欧盟是否会因为瑞典的愤怒而切断与中国的联系？不会。

[–]Tombot3000 
我为什么觉得我应该给你五毛。。。
What they do within their borders is an indication of what they would like to do internationally, and is important to many people.
Regardless, I agree with you that the best indicator is how they treat others. Let's see, off the top of my head the CCP has...
1、Warred with India and Vietnam over territorial disputes.
2、aggressively encroached on the Philippines, Japan, and South Korea and their maritime resources.
3、Attempted to economically bully SK over THAAD.
4、Repeatedly and extensively attempted to undermine Taiwan’s independence.
5、Undertaken extensive cyber espionage campaign against Western powers.
6、Ignored the sovereignty of foreign nations over ethnically Chinese individuals.
7、consistently stolen foreign IP and military tech.
8、manipulated their currency subsidized local companies in violation of World Bank, IMF, and trade agreement statutes.
As far as "no one cares" there's a reason why China has no allies, only one military partner (Pakistan, not exactly an A-lister) and foreign investment has been shifting to competitors year after year despite significant skill and infrastructure advantages held by the Chinese. No one on the international stage trusts China. 

我为什么觉得我应该给你五毛。。。（译注：我cao，原文为中文，辩了这么久，才发现居然是个轮子在和一个对中国很了解的老外在论战）
他们在境内所做的事情正表明了他们想在国际上做些什么，这对许多人来说很重要。
无论如何，我同意你的观点，最好的指标是他们如何对待他人。让我们看看，在我的脑海中，TG的表现如何……
1、与印度和越南在领土争端问题上争执。
2、积极侵占菲律宾、日本、韩国及其海洋资源。
3、企图在经济上威胁韩国。
4、不断地、广泛地试图破坏台湾的du立。
5、对西方大国进行了广泛的网络间谍活动。
6、忽视外籍华人的外国主权。
7、不断地窃取外国知识产权和军事技术。
8、违反世界银行、国际货币基金组织和贸易协定法，操纵本国货币补贴的当地企业。
就“没人关心”而言，中国没有盟友是有原因的，只有一个军事伙伴（巴基斯坦，还不是一个一线国家），而且外国投资每年都在向中国的竞争对手转移，尽管中国拥有大量的技术和基础设施优势。在国际舞台上，没有人信任中国。

[–]tat3179 
Again, like I said, if you are not in direct territorial disputes with them, there are no reason to be scared, at least militarily. My country has territorial dispute with them, and now we are deeply tied with China economically.
As for your list, yeah, there is called looking after your interest. I could swap your list with the US too if I am bothered. I am not denying it factually, but as far as I am concerned, this is what powers do in its own interest.
As for your argument about allies, we shall see. Xi Jingping may be a strongman, but he is an effective captain so far managing China's interest. Beats Trumpism anytime though. Also, I am not optimistic that Americans will not vote another Trump like idiot in the future.

再一次，就像我说的，如果你和他们没有直接的领土争端，至少在军事上是没有理由害怕的。我的国家与他们有领土争端，但现在我们在经济上与中国紧密相连。
至于你的清单，是的，有一种说法叫做维护自身利益。如果我觉得很烦，我也可以拿美国列一串清单来怼你。我并不是在否认这一点，但就我而言，这不过是以实力为自己谋利益而已。
至于你关于盟友的争论，我们将拭目以待。586可能是一个强人，但到目前为止，他也是一位卓有成效的为中国谋利益的领导人。尽管总是与“特朗普主义”相对抗。此外，我并不乐观地认为，美国人将来还会向白痴一样再次投票给特朗普。

[–]Tombot3000 
Half of what I listed has nothing to do with territorial disputes but are still good reasons to be wary of China.
Having allies isn't really a "we shall see" thing; it's been consistent since the Sino-Soviet split.
Xi Jinping effectiveness is certainly debatable. That is a "we shall see" issue. As far as him being better than Trump I mostly agree, except for the fact that he's far more competent and able to hold onto power and change the system -- if you don't like those changes, better to have a moron.

我列出的一半与领土争端没有任何关系，但仍有理由对中国保持警惕。
有没有盟友并不是真正的“我们将拭目以待”的事物；自从中苏分裂以来，中国一直没有盟友。
586的成效当然是有争议的。这才是一个“我们将拭目以待”的问题。至于他比特朗普要好，我基本上同意，除了他更有能力、更有能力掌握权力并改变体制——但如果你不喜欢这类变化，那还不如有个白痴当总统。

[–]tat3179 
Small countries should be wary big countries as a rule, if they want to survive that is. Funny you think that the US is somehow better than the Chinese in that regard.
The Sino-Soviet split is ancient history. The Soviets are no more, and China is far more powerful, richer and influential than the 60s. China is just starting the process of building the very same institutions the US had for decades. Before that, they are just busy minding their business, if you do follow global events. Perhaps it won't be as effective the US influence, again, time will tell.
Trump is a mere sympthon of a bigger problem in the US. The US is very badly fractured that it is no joke. Corporations practically owns the government. Dumb people speaks louder than actual smart people.
As for your moron argument - if you have no competitor as intense a China that 4 years moronic rule wouldn't matter. Put it this way, if you want to contain China, best time to do so was in the 90s. That was over. 2nd best time, the 2000s. Oops. Instead of managing China, the US chooses to mess with Central Asia and Middle East. Obama tried during the his last 4 years, barely could do so until the US elected an actual moron that undid what Obama tried to so.
China is not going to sit still for the next 4 years. And I am not sure the US won't elect another moron in 4 years time or the next for 4 years afterwards.

如果想要生存下去，小国应该警惕大国，这是常理。有趣的是，你认为美国在这方面比中国人好。
中苏分裂是古老的历史。苏联已经不复存在，中国比60年代更强大、更富有、更有影响力。中国刚刚开始建立美国已经拥有了几十年的体系。在此之前，如果你真的关注全球事件，中国只是在忙于自己的事情。或许，中国的影响力不会像美国那样有效，时间仍然会告诉我们。
特朗普只是美国所面临的一个更大问题的一个案例。美国的分裂非常严重，这可不是闹着玩的。实际上政府被企业所拥有。而愚蠢的人比真正聪明的人话语权更大。
至于你的白痴论点——如果你没有像中国那样的激烈竞争对手，那么4年轮回的白痴规则也就无所谓了。换句话说，如果你想遏制中国，最好的时机是在90年代。而那已经成为过去。第二个最好的时间点，是21世纪头10年。老天啊。美国没有处理中国，而是选择与中亚和中东厮混。奥巴马在他最后的4年任期里尝试过，差不多就要看到成效了，直到美国选出了一个真正的白痴，推翻了奥巴马努力耕耘的一切。
在接下来的4年里，中国不会干坐着发呆。而我不确定美国是否会在4年内或之后的4年里再选一个白痴。