白宫指责中国在台湾问题上“奥威尔式胡言乱语” [美国媒体]

Trump White House accuses China of 'Orwellian nonsense' over Taiwan references

白宫指责中国在台湾问题上“奥威尔式胡言乱语”



[-]LaoSh 
I swear if Trump manages to get the regime to reform after this shit in Korea my head is going to explode.

我发誓，如果这次朝鲜的烂事，特朗普真成功了，我的脑袋肯定会爆掉。

[-]hemto 
It'll be interesting to see how China reacts. I'd expect them to avoid making a bigger fuss out of this issue as they seem to be testing the waters for how much they can get away with while bullying individual companies, but the wording of this statement might trigger a few CCP officials. I'd imagine foreign countries calling out the "Orwellian nonsense" going on in China would feel like an existential threat to them.

我倒是对中国的反应很感兴趣。我觉得中国不会在这个问题上小题大做，中国不过是想试试水温，想看看欺负这些公司，后果会有多严重，不过这次声明的措辞可能会触动某些共产党官员的神经。我觉得如果有国家对中国的“奥威尔式胡言乱语”大喊一声，中国会感到生存威胁。

[-]kieranmullen 
They would have to get on wikipedia to look up the reference if they don't understand it. If it's not blocked that is.

如果中国人不明白啥意思，就去维基百科上查查。不过前提是网站没有被封。

[-]nickdangernickdanger 
Let's face it: EVERYTHING feels like an existential threat to the PRC shitbags. They are in fact an existential threat to the rest of the world, and must be stopped at all costs.

面对现实吧：中华人民共和国看什么都像生存威胁。其实中国才是世界其他国家的生存威胁，必须不惜一切代价地阻止中国。

[-]ting_bu_dong 
Everything is an existential threat to them. Which makes sense, because they are terrible, and should not exist, and they know it.

【中国看什么都像生存威胁。】有道理，因为中国人让人讨厌，中国就不应该存在，对此他们心知肚明。

[-]lukelukeluke4 
Let's face it though, countries that support terrorism and threatens nuclear strikes against other countries (north Korea for example, though there are others), are far more of a threat to the world. The leadership in China has issues but all things are relative. They promote trade, even if unfairly, is better than threats of violence and war.

让我们面对现实吧，那些支持恐怖主义，威胁核打击其他国家的国家（比如朝鲜，当然还有其他国家），对世界的威胁要大得多。中国的领导层有问题，但所有的问题都是相对的。中国也在促进自由贸易，虽然是不公平贸易，但是这比暴力和战争要好得多。

[-]Jman-laowai 
North Korea isn't the second largest economy in the world with the largest standing army. That's the key difference, not that China has the worst government, but that have a bad government and they are very powerful.

朝鲜不是全球第二大经济体，没有全球规模最大的常备军。这才是问题的关键。不是说中国政府是全世界最差的政府，而是说中国政府不靠谱，况且中国的实力还非常强大。

[-]lukelukeluke4
Thanks for taking your time responding and making a rationale argument. We all don't have to agree but it's good to be polite and open to opinions instead of just creating an echo chamber.

谢谢你花时间回答，并进行理性辩论。我们不需要意见统一，但是礼貌地接受不同的观点，总比简单的附和别人好。

[-]ting_bu_dong
All things are relative, but dictatorship is dictatorship.

所有的事情都是相对的，但是独裁是绝对的。

[-]merimus_maximus 
You know that China has been supporting North Korea's existance, right? As well as supporting many other dodgy regimes for their own economic benefit? The US does the latter too, but at least they do things with an originally ethical aim, even if it gets twisted beyond recognition. China on the other hand does not care about how the rest of the world does at all, and only cares about its own short term benefit, and will play a zero sum game to deprive others while enriching themselves, which is rather short sighted for such a powerful country.

我们知道因为中国一直在背后支持，朝鲜才能生存下去，我说的没错吧?中国为了自己的经济利益，支持许多其他狡猾的政权?当然，美国也这么做，但是至少美国这么做的初衷是出于道德，即便这种出于道德的初衷已经被严重扭曲得面目全非。不过，中国对世界其他国家的所作所为漠不关心，只关心自己的短期利益，中国在玩一场损人利己的零和游戏，对于有实力大国来说这是相当短视的。

If you want to rule the world, you have to ensure that there is a world left to rule when you are at the top, don't you? Doesn't seem like China really has a grasp of that concept yet, or worse still, they could care less about other countries and see their actions as beneficial to world order by suppressing other countries/entities until they fizzle out and die off, like what they are doing to Tibet and the Chinese Muslims. All this means that China is not beneficial for the world the way they are functioning on the world stage as of now.

如果想统治世界，一定要确保站在世界之巅的时候，这个世界还存在，不是吗?不过看来中国好像没有这种观念，更严重的是，中国很少关心其他国家，中国认为压迫别的国家就是在帮全世界，中国最终会把这些国家搞垮，就像对西藏和中国穆斯林那样。这一切都意味着，中国的存在对世界一点好处都没有，而世界却为中国带来了巨大好处。

[-]ToniGrossmann  
Ethical aim? Vietnam, Iraq? Have we lived through the same time line? How delusional are you???

出于道德目的？你说的是越南还是伊拉克？我们是生活在同一个时代吗？你有妄想症吗？

[-]merimus_maximus
Like I said, originally ethical aims twisted beyond recognition. I am not saying what they did was ethical at all. The problem is that China does not even try to be ethical. Please try to read and understand my meaning before shooting off.

就像我说的，道德初衷已经扭曲的面部全非了。我压根就没说美国的所作所为都出于道德。问题是，中国甚至连道德都没有。开喷前请好好读我的留言，先理解我的意思。

[-]ToniGrossmann 
My point: they didn‘t do any of it with ethical aims. They might use talking points to justify their wars. That’s about it.

我的观点是：中国没有任何道德目的。中国可能会通过大声说话来证明自己战争行为的合理性。仅此而已。

[-]merimus_maximus
I think that is a subjective view of US foreign policy. As a non-partisan observer not from the States, the US has at least built frameworks that were in the general interest of the world. They pushed for democratic governments because they felt that it was the better form of government in many parts of the world, war or not. Of course the wars were mostly decisions made to further the US' own benefit, there are many other instances in which the US has acted altruistically because there is a drive from the people to act that way, and the government carries the wishes of the people who run it out.

我认为你对美国外交政策的看法太主观。作为一名非美无党派观察员，我认为美国至少建立了符合世界普遍利益的框架。美国在世界各地通过战争或者其他手段推动建立民主政府，因为美国认为民主政府具有优越性。当然美国大部分战争决定都是出于自身利益，但是还有许多其他实例证明美国的行为完全是无私的，因为美国这么做是听到了人民的呼声，这些国家政府肩负着人民的希望，却辜负了人民。

It seems to me that not as many decisions made by the US were made just for their benefit, or at least not just for the short term, as compared to what China has been doing. War is also not the be all and end all of foreign policy, and just because China has not waged as many wars does not mean it cannot wreck the world through other means.

在我看来，与中国的所作所为比，美国很多决定并不是出于自身利益，至少不是出于自身的眼前利益。战争不是外交政策的全部，战争也无法解决所有外交问题，中国没有发动太多的战争，并不意味着中国不能通过其他手段破坏世界。

[-]ToniGrossmann
Their policies in Africa could be interpreded in a similar fashion. Only that China doesn‘t care much about the form of government when it does make business with other countries. And for me the US seem to often just care about democracy when it fitted their purpose and when it would bring the right people into power... China not messing in other countries affairs seems to come with lots of benefits fir them and world stability as a whole.

中国的非洲政策就完美地诠释了他们的风格。那就是：中国与其他国家做生意的时候，不太在意合作国家的政府形式。在我看来，美国似乎只关心民主，只要符合美国的目标，美国就会让他成为真正掌权的人。中国不干涉别国内政的政策为自己带来了许多好处，也维护了整个世界的稳定。

[-]merimus_maximus 
Have you read about what the Chinese are actually doing in Africa? On the surface, yes that seems like what they are doing, but over the past few years it has become more and more apparent that China is giving out "aid" in the form of loans to assets they know are unproductive or they can make unproductive by not giving it business so that the governments cannot pay the loans and have to hand over the assets, many strategic like shipyards and land parcels, as part of the terms of the loan. Otherwise they give out high interest loans to weak governments and bleed the countries dry because the government officials only care about a new source of cash in the short run while they are in office. China has managed to work aid into a muscular foreign policy tool precisely because they care not about how other counried fair in the long run, unlike how the West has done things, which is to go through the UN conventions on foreign aid guidelines to ensure that the aid means certain standards, which prevents aid from being used unethically like how China does.

你看过中国在非洲的新闻吗，你知道中国正在非洲干什么吗？表面上看中国做的事情确实在帮助非洲，可是最近几年，中国对非洲意图越来越明显了，中国向非洲资产提供“贷款援助”，中国明知道这些资产没有价值的，非洲政府无法靠这些没有价值的资产偿还贷款。最后，非洲国家不得不将这些资产移交给中国，像造船厂、土地等许多战略价值的东西都被用来抵债。中国会向弱小的政府提供高利息的贷款，榨干这些国家最后一滴血，因为政府官员在他们执政期间，只考虑短期的资金来源。中国成功地将对外援助变成强硬的外交工具,正因为中国压根就不会从长远考虑，不关心如何在其他国家保证公平，这和西方国家很不一样，西方国家会根据联合国规定的外国援助指南进行援助，以确保援助符合一定的标准,这就可以防止像中国一样，在援助中使用不道德的行为。

Go look up the cases of Sri Lanka, Djibouti and Greece, in which they have taken over the key ports, possibly to use as covert military bases. Tell me again how this sort of muscular foreign policy is good for world stability? Maybe the world does become stable when every country is under China's thumb as a tributary state to China, but I am quite sure the countries which succumb will disagree with your definition of beneficial foreign policy.

斯里兰卡、吉布提和希腊都是活生生的例子。在这些国家的案例中，中国占据了重要港口，这些港口可能成为中国隐蔽的军事基地。烦请告诉我，这种强硬的外交政策对世界稳定有什么好处?每个国家都被中国控制的时候，也许世界会变得更加稳定，但是我敢肯定那些屈服的国家，不会认同你对有益外交政策的定义。

[-]ToniGrossmann 
Compared to the U.S. the PRC in a haven of stability, cooperation, peace and shared prosperity. They are doing just fine.

与美国相比，中国是稳定、合作、和平和共同繁荣的天堂。中国做得不错。

[-]nickdangernickdanger
Yeah, right. Stability with the constant threat of imprisonment for not only any Chinese, but every member of their family, if they dare to peacefully differ with the PRC. You are either a complete idiot who has never been to China, or a Wumao with a fake name.

说得对。中国在稳定地持续威胁把那些与政府对着干的中国人以及家人关起来。要么你是从未去过中国的，彻头彻尾的白痴，要么就是带着面具的五毛。

[-]ToniGrossmann 
Very aggressive statement.But I get it: you hate the party and think you ( and or the west) are superior. You can peacefully differ like half of the population all you want here, you just dont want to openly protest or do stupid things. Not sure if the first would really get you arrested though. I was out with Chinese who jelled in restaurant that they hate the party...

你的声明很有侵略性呀。但是我明白你的意思：你讨厌共产党，认为你(或者西方)更优越。就算与这里一半的人存在分歧，你也不愿意做公开反对国家这样的傻事。不知道你会不会是第一个被捕的人我就不喜欢那些因为讨厌共产党而被软禁在酒店的中国人。

[-]nickdangernickdanger 
Yep can say it in a restaurant. Try to take it any further and ask for humanitarian treatment? For example, look at all the women who have been arrested, harassed, or threatened lately for saying they shouldn't be raped. Just one example of dozens I could cite about your glorious, harmonious paradise.

你可以在酒店里这么说呀，你也可以要求人道主义对待？例如，看看那些因为说了自己不应该被强奸而被逮捕、骚扰和威胁的女性。这只是发生在你所谓辉煌和谐的天堂十多个案例中的一个。

[-]ToniGrossmann 
Why do you even change the subject. The initial point was about Chinas behavior toward the word. I also don‘t know about what you are talking right now.

你为什么要岔开话题。咱们刚开始讨论的是中国对世界的行为。现在我都不知道你到底想说什么。

[-]nickdangernickdanger 
Nope. Your initial point was "China is awesome!"

不！你最初的观点是“中国太棒了”

[-]ToniGrossmann 
Read again.

你再看一遍。

[-]ToniGrossmann 
Can you give me a link to the rape thing you talked about.

你说的那个关于强奸的事情，能不能给个链接。

[-]nickdangernickdanger
Google is your friend.

自己去谷歌吧。

[-]ToniGrossmann 
So you have nothing? You don‘t seem to have all too much attention arguments at all.

没有你说个毛。

[-]nickdangernickdanger 
Google it you stupid cow! I'm not going to do the work for you. Moron.

自己去谷歌，你个傻母牛！我没义务给你找，蠢货。

[-]CongregationVJackals 
Don't be mean to Toni. Toni is having a rough time lately, this is her time of the month, and the sheets were so messy this morning.
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/s ... hinas-feminist-five
It took all of 5 seconds to find this. Toni needs that 5 seconds to get that gunk out of her navel that builds up everyday she doesn't shower.

我不是针对Toni。Toni接下来的时间可能会不太好过，她来大姨妈了，早上床单被她弄得一塌糊涂。
【中国五位反对性暴力的女权主义者被拘留】
五秒钟就能找到这篇新闻。Toni需要利用这5秒钟的时间抠出肚脐眼里的泥，她每天都这么干，这样就不用洗澡了。

[-]FileError214
So China is great, as long as you don’t do anything silly like protest against the government?

中国是伟大的国家，前提是你不能做抗议政府的傻事。

[-]jgzman 
Stability with the constant threat of imprisonment for not only any Chinese, but every member of their family, if they dare to peacefully differ with the PRC.
Did he stutter? Stability is most easily achieved by quashing dissent. Doesn't make it a good thing, but it is reasonably predictable, which is important in geopolitics.

如果他们胆敢与中华人民共和国和平共处，不仅是他们可能被监禁，就连他们的家人都可能被监禁。
他是结巴吗?平息异议是最容易实现的。这不是好事，但是却可以预测，而这在地缘政治中很重要。

[-]FileError214 
Just curious how you seem to know so much about the US. Are you American? Are you living in America right now? Because I’m telling you, it’s not some sort of dystopian wasteland, despite what you might have read online.

我很好奇你怎么这么了解美国。你是美国人吗？你现在住在美国吗？和你在网上看的不一样，美国可不是什么反乌托邦的西部世界。

[-]merimus_maximus
Check his post history, seems like he is simply a rather biased American left wing zealot who can only see the flaws in his own country.

看看他发帖的历史，他似乎是对美国有偏见的左翼狂热分子，他只能看到自己国家的缺陷。
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