为什么我的台湾朋友认为大陆人讲的普通话听起来粗野 [美国媒体]

-------------译者：yearning-审核者：willdemon------------



Where did the negative connotation come from? Isn't the accent spoken on the mainland closer to how most mandarin speakers were speaking prior to the civil war?

这个负面的评价是怎么来的？难道大陆人的口音不是更接近在国共内战之前大多数说普通话的人的口音吗？


-------------译者：大汉故土-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Jonathan Chen Immigrated to the U.S. at 12 went back where I came from at 27
upxed Oct 29
Isn't the accent spoken on the mainland closer to how most mandarin speakers were speaking prior to the civil war?

难道大陆人的口音不是更接近内战之前大多数说普通话的人的口音？

First of all understand that prior to the civil war there was no such term as “Putonghua”. Depending on where people are from they spoke the local dialects that are mutual unintelligible to one another. The term “Putonghua” was coined to set a national standard the same way the KMT government coined the term “Guo-Yu” – both denote “Standard Chinese”.

首先，内战之前并没有“普通话”一说。各个地方来的人说的都是自己的地方方言，彼此间很难理解和沟通。普通话一词被创造出来并被设定为一种国家标准，而国民党政府将其定义为“国语”。两者都是“标准中文”的意思。

You might be surprised to learn that Sun Yat Sen only spoke Cantonese and Japanese. They unearthed these recordings of him speaking Mandarin which kind of sounds like a Japanese guy trying to speak a foreign language:

如果告诉你孙中山只会讲广东话和日语，你可能会很惊讶。他们通过记录发现，孙中山说普通话的感觉比较像日本人在尝试说外语（汉语）。

As for Taiwan no one spoke Mandarin before the KMT government only the Min Nan dialect (today referred to as “Taiwanese”) and Hakka. The KMT forbid the Min Nan dialect in both schools and media for years in order to push Standard Chinese. The ban was still in place when I was in junior high in 1986. Interesting anecdote because my 1st/2nd grade homeroom teacher was from Beijing I was criticized by the older people in the family for speaking with the “er” sound. Even though technically I was learning the “standard” or “superior” accent.

至于台湾，国民党政府（逃来台湾）之前，没人说普通话。大家都只说闽南语（如今被称作台语）和客家话。国民党为了推广国语，在很长一段时间内都禁止在学校和霉体上使用闽南语。1986年我上初中的时候，禁令仍在。说一件趣事：我1-2年纪的时候，班主任是北京人，于是我说话中带的儿化音经常被家里的长辈批评。即便如此，技术上来讲，我当时学的也是标准的或者说高级的口音。

-------------译者：大汉故土-审核者：956245377------------

Where did the negative connotation come from?

负面印象从何而来？

As Lawrence Chiou pointed out whatever so-called negative connotation comes from the Taiwanese person’s own biases against China. As of 2016 numerous Mainland Chinese TV programs have been hugely popular in Taiwan including their version of “The Voice” historical soaps and variety shows. There’s certainly a pocket of Taiwanese people generally older (>55?) that have a strong preference to the Min Nan dialect and there are at least 2 TV stations that cater to that niche. Generally speaking however I’ll be shocked if I see two guys under the age of 30 speak to each other in Min Nan.

正如 Lawrence Chiou 指出的那样：这些所谓的负面印象来自于台湾人自身对于中国的偏见。截止2016年，无数大陆的中文节目在台湾广受欢迎，包括大陆版的“好声音”、古装肥皂剧以及各种综艺节目。当然，台湾也仍然还有一部分人 （通常是55岁以上）仍然偏好于讲闽南语。台湾目前至少还有两个电视台（使用闽南语）来满足这部分人的需求。但是，总的来说，如果看到两个30岁下的年轻人在一起用闽南语交谈，会让我感到很震惊。

On a semi-related note whenever I see news reports interviewing “man on the street” in China I’m always astonished at how well-spoken people are. They are able to form a coherent opinion that is relevant and succinct (maybe there’s a lot of editing who knows?). Compared that to the typical Taiwanese person who will “Hm” “Ah” “like” “I don’t know” as if they’re being waterboarded. The exasperated reporter literally has to ask a yes or no questions just to get a response they can use.

不管什么时候看在中国采访路人的新闻报道，我都会对被采访人的能说会道感到吃惊。他们轻易就能归纳出言之有物，而又言简意赅的统一观点。（或许是剪辑的结果，谁知道呢？），相比之下，台湾人只会嗯嗯啊啊、“可能”、“我不知道”之类的。像是遭受水刑折磨一样。因此，恼怒的记者只能问些是或不是这样的问题，这样才能得到他们的报道所需要的回应。

So no I don’t think the OP’s experience with his “Taiwanese friends” are representative of what’s going on. In fact I would say it’s more of a non-issue.

所以，我认为题主和他的台湾朋友并不能代表所有人的看法。实际上我认为这是一个狗屁问题。

-------------译者：卡思-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Lawrence Chiou Biophysics PhD student at Stanford
Written May 14 2015

Lawrence Chiou 斯坦福生物物理学博士
写于2015年5月14日

The bias some Taiwanese may have against the general mainland accent is at least partly due to general Taiwanese prejudices against the mainland and their perception of the mainland as being less developed and well educated.

台湾人可能对普通大陆口音存在偏见，至少部分是由于一般台湾人对大陆的成见，他们对大陆的印象是不太发达和受教育程度低。

Another reason is perhaps linguistic. While a Chinese television broadcaster who perhaps represents the most "standard" pronunciation would likely be easily understood by all (and thus perceived as "educated") many mainland Chinese have certain accents and regionalisms that may be difficult for Taiwanese or even other mainlanders to understand. In many cultures thicker or regional accents are associated with lower social status and less education. (Consider for instance the stigma against even well-educated Americans with a Southern accent or Britons with an Irish accent; I have difficulty understanding some of the more exotic British accents.)

另一个原因可能是语言上的。中国的电视广播者或许代表了最“标准”的发音，可以很容易被所有人理解（因此被认为是“受过教育的”），许多中国大陆人都有某些口音和方言，这对台湾人甚至其他省的大陆人来说可能很难理解。在许多文化中，较浓重的或地域性的口音被认为与较低的社会地位和较低的教育相关。 （例如，想想那些受过良好教育但是带有南方口音的美国人或具有爱尔兰口音的英国人所受到的歧视;我很难听懂一些更加异国情调的英语口音。）

-------------译者：卡思-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

In all there seem to be some similarities with what happened between the US and Britain. It turns out actually that the English spoken by Americans is closer in pronunciation to what was spoken by both the British and American colonists prior to the American Revolutionary War. It was actually only after the War that the British elite took it upon themselves to mispronounce "r" sounds thereby emphasizing their social class. Nowadays British English is often perceived to be more educated than American English even though it is undoubtedly less "original."

总之这似乎与发生在美国和英国之间的事情有一些相似之处。事实上，美国人所说的英语与英国和美国殖民者在美国革命战争之前说的发音更接近。实际上只是在战争之后，英国精英阶层自己故意把“r”发错音，从而强调他们的社会阶级。如今，英国英语经常被认为比美国英语更深刻，即使他们所说的英语其实并不是那么“正宗”。


I definitely have the impression that to a certain extent many well-educated Taiwanese are somewhat self-smug with their lack of retroflex (zh ch sh r) sounds even though they're well cognizant of the fact that it is less "proper."

我一直有一种印象，许多受过良好教育的台湾人在某种程度上都有点自鸣得意，发音都缺乏翘舌音（zh ch sh r），虽然他们也意识到了这样做并不“适当”。

-------------译者：卡思-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Roger Do lived in Taiwan
Written May 14 2015
Part of it comes from the vocabulary. Part of it is the mandarin spoken in China are heavily accented by regional accents (China after all has a few provinces.) Some are no doubt simple prejudices. And others are due to the syntactical construction of the many tourists who are not highly educated.

部分是因为词汇。中国的部分普通话地区口音很重（中国毕竟有很多个省）。有些则毫无疑问只是单纯因为偏见。其他则是因为许多没有受过高等教育的游客的句法结构。

Also Taiwanese have this view of mandarin as being a pure and lovely movie quality language. It's not. Most of the mandarin spoken in Taiwan professional society is a variant of the court-mandarin (This is what mandarin really means.) and it's a refined speech like court English. Not something American would ever have worry about except in the South.

此外，台湾人认为普通话是一种纯粹可爱的电影质量语言。不是的。台湾专业社会中的大多数普通话是官方普通话（这才是普通话的真正含义）的变体，是一种雅言，就好比宫廷英语。美国人不会对此有任何担心，除了在南方的那些人。

-------------译者：magicqueen99-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Feifei Wang I spend about the same amount of my life in China and in the US.
Written May 15 2015 R26; Upvoted by Eric Lim Used to work at Taipei Economic and Cultural Center Office.
I'm from Beijing. Mandarin is primarily based on Beijing dialect. When you're talking about Mandarin in its truest form we're talking about Beijing dialect. It is the court dialect used by many Manchu emperors and noblemen. Beijing dialect was what originally called “官话" (literally means official dialect). Beijing dialect has more "er" sound that's not present in standard Mandarin but that's just original Mandarin being watered down so people from other regions has an easier time to pronounce it. 

我来自北京。普通话是基于北京方言发展的。说起普通话，其最正宗的含义是北京话。这是很多满族皇帝和贵族们使用的宫廷语言。北京话最早叫“官话”（字面意思是：官方语言）。北京话里有很多儿化音，在标准普通话里不会出现，不过那只是因为原本的普通话已经柔化了，这样其它地方的人就更容易发音。

My experience with Taiwan people regarding my dialect is nothing but praises. I get the comments like "Oh you're from Beijing? No wonder your 国语* sound so good". *国语 national language Taiwan's name for standard mandarin. 

我和台湾人相处的经验是，只要听到我的发音，只会受到赞扬。他们会这么评价：“哦你是北京来的呀？难怪你的国语讲得这么好听。”“国语”：全国通用语言，是台湾人对标准普通话的称呼。

So it's not that Taiwan people look down upon people who speak mandarin. They probably look down upon people who can't speak mandarin the way they expect mandarin should be spoken as in "like a Beijing person". 

所以不是台湾人瞧不起说普通话的人。他们可能只是瞧不起说的普通话不象他们预期会讲得“象一个北京人”一样的人。

Mandarin especially Beijing dialect is a beautiful and expressive dialect with very tonal pronunciation and when speaking well and fluently has a rhythmic singing quality.

普通话特别是北京话是一种优美的富有表达力的语言，语调富有节奏感，如果说得流畅通顺，有如歌的韵律。

-------------译者：magicqueen99-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Joseph Boyle
Written May 17 2015
Nobody has mentioned vocabulary that was proletarianized in the PRC. 厕所 for was normal on the mainland but sounds vulgar in Taiwan. 爱人 was normal for "spouse" but outside the PRC still sounds like "lover". Some of these choices have tended to go bougie-fied on the mainland in recent decades but the impression may have stuck.

没人提到大陆语汇的平民化。“厕所”在大陆很常用，但是在台湾听起来就粗俗。“爱人”通常指“配偶”，但是在大陆以外的地区听起来就是“情人”。这类词近年来已经开始小资化，但是多年前留下的印象没法轻易改变。

KW Lu know something about China
Written Jan 6 2016
The Mandarin is based  on Beijing dialect so the Beijingers can proudly claim that  the Mandarin they speak is nearly perfect. 

普通话就是基于北京话发展起来的，所以北京人可以自豪地宣称他们讲普通话近乎完美。

The Mandarin spoken in Taiwan has an accent of Fujianese ( a southern dialect )  so  to the ears of mainlanders the Taiwanese version of Mandarin is very feminine with that southern accent.  A guy from Beijing probable will frown upon the way and  certain words their counterpart in Taiwan would prefer to use as it appears so sissy.  On the other hand   the Taiwanese who get used to the Mandarin they speak with certain softness would find the mainland version rough or 'uneducated'  as they described.

台湾人讲的普通话带一点福建口音（一种南方口音），所以在大陆人听起来，南方腔的台湾版普通话很女性化。一个北京人对某些用词的台湾版可能会皱眉头，因为听起来太娘娘腔了。另一方面，习惯说某种柔和的普通话的台湾人可能会发现大陆版普通话很粗硬，或者象他们描述的那样“缺乏教养”。

-------------译者：氯化钠⊙▽⊙槑-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

There are a lot of sounds Taiwanese Mandarin speakers DO NOT use which are required in putonghua. For example they do not
produce “curled tongue” sounds such as ch zh sh ri (in pinyin romanization a system that IS uniquely used on the Mainland).
Putonghua is also very clear about the distinction between “sh” and “s” “r” and “l” and “l” and “n” which is not
always the case in Taiwan. These differences might help explain why putonghua can sound harsher and more clipped that
Taiwanese Mandarin and also why many people feel that the Taiwanese accent is softer and more feminine than anything you
would hear in northern China. (People in southern China very often have many of the same pronunciation struggles that
Taiwanese people do.)

有很多在普通话中必须要用的音，这是说台湾话的人一定不会使用的。比如，他们不会发像：“ch zh sh ri”（唯独在大陆使用的罗马字符的
拼音）这样的“翘舌音”。对于“sh”和“s” “r”和“l”以及“l”和“n”这些在台湾区分不太明显的词，普通话能很明显的区分这些音。
这也就能解释为什么普通话听起来那么生硬，也解释了为什么台湾话是很多人听起来都感觉有女性的柔软，比你听到的任何中国北方语言都要
柔美。（中国南方的人和台湾人一样都不能很顺溜的发一些音）

The question of education doesn’t really factor into any of this and somewhat ironically I believe these differences also mean
putonghua is actually a more complicated language phonemically. (***Real linguists please feel free to correct me here.)

教育的问题不会成为影响发音的因素之一，较为讽刺的是我相信这些不同也正是说明普通话的确的一种比较完整音节的语言。（请真正的语言
学家不要拘束，请指出我的错误。）

Of course there are other factors such as volume (it would not be an inaccurate generalization to say Mainlanders speak much
more loudly on average) vocabulary (the differences are similar to those between “British” English and “American” English)
and then subject matters (doors to thoughts obviously) discussed by speakers (in real life or in the media) but I don’t know
how one would measure the sophistication of the same “level” of different forms of the same language bias removed.

当然还有像声音高低这样的因素（这不再是普遍的一种错误的观念，就是认为大陆人说话都比较大声）词汇（就像英式英语和美式英语之间的
区别一样）以及常被讨论的话题（在媒体上或生活中），但是我不知道怎么样才算是熟练掌握，尤其是同种语言的不同异化形式。

-------------译者：鹤。-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Rainnie Tang 23 years as a Chinese
Written Dec 16 2015
The most standard Mandarin is spoken in Beijing.
Taiwanese have a strong accent.
While Beijing people is seldon heard to say that people in the rest part of China sounds uneducated Taiwanese do. LOL what makes them have such a high opinion of themselves.
Besides a wise man never belittle the others to build himself up.
Well last year a vedio became popular in which a Taiwanese said that people in mainland are all poor because they cannot afford trea eggs which can only be seen on the table of a rich family. It's already become a big joke in the Internet of Mainland China. How do they come up with so many ridiculous bias? They are genius!

最标准的普通话是北京话。
台湾人有严重的口音。
然而北京人很少像台湾人那样说中国其他地区的人讲话听起来像没接受过良好教育。让人好笑，他们有什么底气这么自视甚高。
而且一个有智慧的人从不通过贬低别人来抬高自己。
去年有一个台湾人说大陆人很穷的视频火了，因为那个台湾人说大陆人吃不起茶叶蛋，只有富人才吃得起。这在中国大陆的网络上变成了一个有名的笑梗。也不知道他们是怎么想出这么一个荒谬的偏见的。他们真是天才！

-------------译者：popebana-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Chara Chan born and raised in Sichuan China
Written Oct 29
Mandarin is based on Beijing dialect but not equal to it. This is what I copied from the Internet

普通话基于北京话但是不等于北京话。这是我从网上抄过来的
For more info please refer to the lix: 官话（语言） - 搜狗百科
更多信息请点击官话（语言） - 搜狗百科

So it’s a combination of Nanking and Beijing dialects which means that Taiwanese specially those highly educated scholars who migrated from mainland to Taiwan have a higher chance to speak more standard Mandarin.

所以它是南京和北京话的结合，这意味着台湾人特别是那些从大陆移民过去的受过高等教育的学者有更高的几率去说标准普通话。

2. I think “uneducated” might refer to the choice of the words and phrases we use not our accent.

我认为没受过教育指的是我们用的词汇和语法的选择而不是我们的口音。

3. You don’t spend time reflecting on Taiwanese’s remarks which are less reliable than those made by HKers. My Taiwan friend uses vulgar languages as well especially when he calls me from the US when he’d even discuss the differences between the mainland and Taiwan dirty languages but you can only find his Confucius quotations or fluent English on the current issues on Facebook which fits his background as an engineer who received his degree in 台湾交大. So he can be both educated and uneducated at the same time.

你没必要去思考台湾人说的话，他们说的话比香港人说的话还不可靠。我的台湾朋友也会说下流的语言，特别是当他从美国给我打电话的时候，他甚至还能谈论大陆和台湾脏话之间的区别，而在他的脸书主页上你只能看到他所引用的孔子语录或者流利的英语，这符合他作为工程师的身份还是台湾交大毕业的。所以他既是受过良好教育的又是粗野的。

My principle of dealing with the Taiwanese: I only buy half of what they told me.

我和台湾人打交道的原则就是，我只相信他们说的一半。

-------------译者：布拉格鸽子蛋-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Eric Lim Used to work at Taipei Economic and Cultural Center Office.
Written May 14 2015
Well I'm not from China but I do not agree with those who think that Mainland's accent sounds uneducated. Actually Mainland's accent sounds more mature and official than Taiwanese's accent in my mind. Anyway Taiwanese accent sounds smoother and cuter in some way. And what make people think that Mainland's mandarin sounds uneducated is maybe becuase the mainlanders speak or talk to each other so loud in public which sounds uncomfortable sometimes(but some Chinese's mandarin sounds really annoying in some way).
埃里克 曾在台北经济文化中心办公室工作。

好吧，我不是中国人，但我不认为大陆口音听起来很粗野。实际上，在我看来，大陆口音比台湾口音更成熟，也更正式。当然在某种程度上台湾口音听起来更温婉可爱。为什么有人觉得大陆普通话听起来很粗野？或许某种程度上是因为大陆人在公众场合说话或交谈时声音很大，让人听起来很不舒服（但是某些中国人的普通话听起来确实难受）。

-------------译者：willdemon-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Paul Denlinger Have lived in China Taiwan and Hong Kong; fluent in Mandarin (written spoken)
Paul Denlinger 曾在中国，台湾及香港居住，汉语流利（书面及口语）
Written Oct 27
There are too many media companies in Taiwan and many of them are owned by pro-independence businesses which want to stir up contempt for mainlanders.

台湾传媒机构泛滥，多数都是由希望挑起民众鄙视大陆的台独企业资助的。

The cheapest shows to produce for television are talk shows and more often than not these talk show hosts talk about how unreliable untrustworthy and uncivilized mainlanders are.

电视传媒中最廉价的节目就是谈话节目。台湾谈话节目中，主持人多数情况下会宣扬大陆人是多么的无信，无耻，不文明。

Extreme examples are cited and because no context is offered many Taiwanese assume that this is normal in the PRC. Repeat this an infinite number of times and you understand why most Taiwanese have a bad impression of mainland Chinese including the Mandarin they speak.

这些节目经常会引用一些极端的事例，由于未被告知事由背景，台湾民众就会认为这些恶迹在中国普遍存在。由于长期不停地进行此种宣传，大多数台湾民众对大陆人，包括大陆人说的汉语持有糟糕的印象。