中国统治越南一千多年，为什么越南不像台湾那样是中国“古老的不可分割的一部分”？ [美国媒体]

-------------译者：卡思-审核者：林一凡------------

China ruled Vietnam from 111 BC to 938 AD. This can actually be considered “ancient historical part of China”. Meanwhile Taiwan was colonized from 1683 to 1895. What gives?

中国从公元前111年至公元938年期间统治过越南。那段时间的越南可以被认为是“中国的古代历史部分”。然而台湾从1683年到1895年被（中国）殖民统治。（结合标题看）这是怎么一回事？


-------------译者：aflyworld-审核者：bs1747------------

James Do Post Doctoral researcher living in Seoul South Korea.
Written Jan 12
Vietnam was ruled by China for over 1000 years but that was the story of more than 1000 years ago. Most countries in Europe were colonized by the Roman Empire around 2000 years ago. Do you consider France UK Germany Spain as “ancient inseparable part of Italy”? Before the first Chinese domination which was in 111 BC Vietnam did own some areas which are parts of China now. So do you consider those Chinese areas as “ancient inseparable part of Vietnam”?

James Do博士生活在韩国首尔的博士后。
写作1月12日
越南由中国统治了1000多年，但这是1000多年前的事情了。欧洲大多数国家在2000年前被罗马帝国殖民。你认为法国英国德国西班牙是“意大利的不可分割的一部分”吗？在中国第一次统治越南之前（在公元前111年），那时越南确实拥有一些地区是现在中国的一部分。那么你认为这些中国地区是“越南的不可分割的一部分”吗？

Someone mentioned things like succession or inheritance which is one of the reasons. But no one clearly mentioned the population language and culture which are the main differences between the cases in Vietnam and Taiwan.
Although being colonized over 1000 years the main population in Vietnam was still Vietnamese (or more specifically the Kinh people) the language was still Vietnamese. Since China government didn’t directly control Vietnam only a small amount of Chinese was sent to this remote area to rule the local people. In over 1000 years we (Vietnamese) kept fighting against the rulers. We actually succeeded sometime so China didn’t continuously rule Vietnam over 1000 years.

有人提到一些事情像遗产或继承，这是其中的原因之一。但没有人清楚提及人口，语言和文化，这是越南和台湾的案件之间的主要区别。
虽然殖民超过1000年，越南的主要人口仍然是越南人（或更具体地是京族），语言仍然是越南语。由于中国政府没有直接控制越南，只有少数中国人被派往这个偏远地区统治当地人民。在1000多年来，我们（越南人）不断对抗统治者。我们实际上成功了，所以中国没有连续统治越南1000多年。

-------------译者：卡思-审核者：bs1747------------

From 938 AD to 1858 Vietnam was independently governed by Vietnamese. Actually during this period Vietnam wasn’t as independent as we are now. Every time when a new Vietnamese dynasty was formed the new Vietnam’s king had to show some respect to China by sending an emissary to China to ask the China’s king for acknowledging his title. If he didn’t do so the China would feel disrespected by a small country like Vietnam and he might answer by invading Vietnam again.

从公元938年到1858年越南是独立的，由越南人统治。其实在这段时间里，越南也不像我们现在那样独立。每当一个新的越南王朝成立，新的越南国王必须对中国表示尊重，派遣一个使者到中国请求中国的皇帝认可他的头衔。如果新国王没有这样做，中国会感到被一个像越南这样的小国所忽略（而不满），然后回应可能是再次入侵越南。

After all during the entire history since 4000 years ago until now we spoke our own language we had our own writing system (i.e. ChO19; Nom since 13th to early 20th century) we had our own culture which is affected but definitely not identical to Chinese one and most importantly the vast majority of population was Vietnamese.

毕竟纵观整个历史，从4000年前到现在我们都说我们自己的语言，我们有自己的书写体系（也就是从13世纪到20世纪初使用的喃字（Chu Nom）我们有自己的文化，受影响但绝对不等同于中国的文化。最重要的是绝大多数人口是越南人。
[注：历史上，越南语最初并无文字而只有口头语言，因此当时越南人多使用完全由汉字组成的文言文（越文：Hán Van/汉文）来书写文章，但口头的交流仍使用与书面的文言文差异很大的越南语。13世纪时，越南人发明了本民族文字的喃字（越文：Chu Nom）]

-------------译者：aflyworld-审核者：bs1747------------

The story is totally different to Taiwan. We Vietnamese all know Taiwanese hate China and don’t want to be part of China. But we think that is just something like people in a self governing territories hating their mother government. I even think that Catalonia has more right to be an independent country from Spain since they have their own language and culture. As a Vietnamese I cannot distinguish Taiwanese and Chinese except their governments. In Vietnam the percentage of Chinese is just 1.1% of the population whereas that in Taiwan is 95% (according to Wikipedia). Taiwanese speak Chinese share the same culture with Chinese. The modern government of Taiwan was originated from Chiang Kai-shek - the president of the republic of China. Taiwanese singers and movie stars fly between China and Taiwan frequently. Taiwanese stars (as well as Hongkong stars) come to China to sing or join a movie/drama just like Chinese. Can any Taiwanese find the different between the Chinese actress Zhao Wei and the Taiwanese actress Ruby Lin when the two stars played the roles of two Chinese princesses in the China-Taiwan drama My Fair Princess. Except movie/drama related to modern Taiwan society all historical drama/movie made by Taiwanese are about things happening in ancient China and cannot be distinguished from the one made by Chinese film makers. When China claimed the stupid Nine-Dash Line which effectively consider Taiwan as part of China there are still famous Taiwanese stars like Ruby Lin and Wallace Huo who support this claim. In a survey conducted in Taiwan in 2016 over half (51.2%) of Taiwanese really want independent. This mean there is a huge number of Taiwanese still consider themselves as Chinese. This never happened in Vietnamese thinking not in 4000 years ago not during the 1000 years of Chinese domination period and definitely not since Vietnam got the independence 1000 years ago.

这个故事与台湾完全不同。我们越南人都知道台湾人仇恨中国人，不想成为中国的一部分。但我们认为这就像自治区人民仇恨他们的祖国政府一样。我甚至认为加泰罗尼亚有更多的权利要求从西班牙分离成为一个独立的国家，因为他们有自己的语言和文化。作为越南人，除了他们的政府不同我不能区分台湾人和中国人的区别，在越南，中国人的人口占比是的1.1％，而台湾的百分比是95％（根据维基百科）。台湾人说中国话，与中国人分享同样的文化。台湾的现代政府源于中国民国总统蒋介石。台湾歌手和电影明星经常在中国和台湾之间来回飞行。台湾明星（以及香港明星）来中国唱歌或加入电影/电视剧就像中国人一样。当两个明星在中国-台湾电视剧《还珠格格》中扮演两个中国公主的角色时任何台湾人能找到中国女演员赵薇和台湾女演员林心如之间的不同吗，除了与现代台湾社会相关的电影/电视剧，台湾人制作的所有历史戏剧/电影都是关于中国古代发生的事情，与中国的电影公司所制作的历史剧看不出有什么区别。当中国声称将台湾视为中国的一部分的愚蠢的九划线时，仍然有着名的台湾明星林心如和霍建华支持这个说法。在2016年在台湾进行的一项调查中，一半以上（51.2％）的台湾人真的想要独立。这意味着仍然有很多台湾人认为自己是中国人。这些事情从来没有在越南发生过，这种思想在4000年前没有过，在中国的1000年统治期间没有过，在越南于1000年前独立后也没有过。

-------------译者：卡思-审核者：bs1747------------

Katie Pedro HR Director Asia at Kabam (2015-present)
Written Jan 12
Katie Pedro Kabam公司亚洲人力资源总监（2015年至今）
写于1月12日
A2A.
Many people gave great answer already. I do not recall my history taught me China occupation in Vietnam. The only knowledge I have is ancient China once dominated northern part of Vietnam. But it is not important because I’m sure the OP is intended to ask for the legitimacy of claiming Taiwan. When a dynasty defeated the previous one and inherited its territory it only legitimately rule what was the previous one had. Just like a person inherit a property. What has lost by the previous dynasty is lost unless you put a war to take it back.

谢邀。
很多人已经给出了很好的答案。我不记得我的历史课有教我中国在越南的占领地。我唯一知道的是古代中国曾经控制过越南北部。但这不重要，因为我知道这个问题的真正意图是想询问中国对台湾领土声明的合法性。一个王朝打败了之前的王朝并继承了领土，那它就算是合法的统治了前一个王朝所拥有的东西。就像一个人继承一份财产一样。以前的王朝输了就是输了，除非你发动战争把它拿回来。

Theoretically Taiwan province has not lost yet. Same to ROC mainland has not lost yet. Mainland and the islands are still one China ruled by two Chinese political parties. Each political party occupy one piece and vying for the rest. Obviously there much less likely for Taiwan to win the tug war. Its youth lost interest and wanted its government to “forget it”. From Mainland point of view however there is a good chance it can win the tug war so why give it up?

理论上台湾省还没有输。对于中华民国来说，大陆也还没有输。内地和宝岛仍是一个中国统治，只是由两个政党统治而已。每个政党各占据一块的同时争夺对方的。显然，台湾赢得这场拉锯战的可能性很小。它的青年们失去了兴趣，并希望其政府“忘了这个争夺”。但是从大陆的角度来看，赢得这场拉锯战的胜算很大，所以大陆为什么放弃呢？

Things became muddy is the “democracy” gets in as a disguise to a simple territory dispute. Democracy can get the situation no where as it is irrelevant. If Taiwan youth choose to rather rule a small island with full international recognition rather than rule the whole modern China and Mongolia in text book and constitution they have to align with their own political party and fight their own fight. Sitting there asking questions in Quora will do nothing remotely useful.

事情变得错综复杂是因为“民主”作为一个托辞被引入简单的领土争端里。民主无法解决这个情况，因为它是不相干的。如果台湾青年选择统治一个具有充分国际承认的小岛，而不是教科书与宪法中的整个现代中国和蒙古，他们必须与自己的政党保持一致，自己战斗。干坐着在Quora问问题是不会有什么帮助的。

-------------译者：卡思-审核者：bs1747------------

Xu Chen lived in China
Written Jan 11
徐晨，住在中国
写于1月11日
The most decisive factor here is succession or inheritance.
When China’s ruling in Vietnam was put to an end and no dynasty had ever managed to recover it following Chinese dynasties and states lost the right to inherit that ruling position. Vietnam became foreign and independent to China both in politics and in culture.

关于这个问题最具决定性的因素是传承或继承。
中国在越南的统治结束之后，后面没有一个中国朝代成功的恢复了对越南的统治，中国失去了继承统治地位的权利。越南在政治和文化上成为了独立于中国的外国。

In the case of Taiwan however China still has the right to inherit. The Qing Dynasty ceded Taiwan to Japan after losing a war. If Japan didn’t lose the WWII and surrendered Taiwan would very likely remain as a Japanese territory. Because the Republic of China would have lost the right to inherit Taiwan as a piece of its territory from the Qing Dynasty which gave it up. However Japan lost surrendered and returned Taiwan back to Qing’s successor the Republic of China.

而对于台湾的情况，中国仍然有继承的权利。清朝战败后把台湾割让给日本。如果日本没有输掉二战并投降，台湾很可能仍然是日本领土，因为从清朝开始就抛弃了它，所以中华民国也会失去把台湾作为其领土的一部分的权利。然而，日本战败投降了，并把台湾归还给了清朝的继任者中华民国。

-------------译者：s555555555-审核者：bs1747------------

The Republic of China was in fact terminated in the civil war at the end of which the People’s Republic of China was founded in 1949. PRC after capturing most of ROC’s territories became the apparent successor of ROC. This is why PRC stated that Taiwan is an inseparable part of it according to its right to inherit the country from ROC. However this PRC was unable to capture Taiwan. ROC is still there sitting in Taiwan. So after all of these events this Taiwan problem is an unfinished business of the Chinese civil war in the eyes of PRC and probably pan-blue Taiwanese.

实际上内战后中华民国就不存在了，1949年中华人民共和国成立。。新中国占据了民国时大部分领土从而成为了中华民国的接班人。这也是为什么新中国称台湾是中国不可分割的一部分的理由。然而当时新中国并没有能力解放台湾。国民党仍旧占领着台湾。所以从那儿之后台湾问题就被中国和台湾蓝营人民视为未解决的中国内战。

There is a strong political will to rule Taiwan or at least control Taiwan at the PRC side. This line of succession theory serves as a convenient theory to justify such a political will.

中国方面有着强烈的政治意愿一统或至少控制台湾。自然而然这种继承理论就用会来表达政治意愿的正当性。

The Taiwanese Independence movement basically argues that Taiwan has nothing to do with this Chinese line of succession. They just want Taiwan and Taiwan alone. A bit inconvenient truth is that most Taiwanese are indeed Chinese people speaking either the Chinese mandarin or Chinese ‘dialects’. The indigenous Taiwanese population only accounts for a tiny proportion on that island. This fact motivates PRC to strongly hold its claim because PRC positions itself as the country for all Chinese in the region.

台湾独立运动基本认为，台湾与中国没有继承关系，他们只想要台湾独立。 有些不便的事实是，大多数台湾人确实是中国人无论说的是中国普通话或中国的“方言”。 而台湾土着人数只占在该岛上人口很小一部分。 这一事实促使中国强烈坚持其主张，因为中国声明其本身由所有中国人组成。

 -------------译者：aflyworld-审核者：bs1747------------

For those who argue that ROC is still alive. This is my response:
Six reasons why ROC is terminated:

对于那些认为中华民国仍然活着的人。这是我的回应：
中华民国终止的六个原因：

Taiwan is in fact an independent country. Only the name and the constitution haven’t been changed due to pressures from outside. But the constitution has already been adjusted to exclude the mainland and the mainland people from the administrative power of the ROC government.
Taiwan has its own election which does not respect nor represent the interests of mainland people.
The mainland accounts for most of the territory and all major historic territories including the capital city.
ROC lost major official international recolonization.
No political force in Taiwan is capable to regain/gain control of the mainland.
The ruling party in Taiwan wants a full Taiwanese independence. And it is widely supported.

台湾其实是一个独立的国家。只有名字和宪法因为外部的压力而没有改变。但宪法已经作出调整，将大陆和大陆人民排除在中华民国政府的行政权力之外。
台湾有自己的选举，不尊重也不代表大陆人民的利益。
中国大陆占据大部分领土和所有主要的历史领土，包括首都。
中华民国失去了主要的官方的国际关系。
台湾没有政治力量能够有能力重新控制大陆。
台湾执政党要台湾独立。并得到广泛支持。

The problem for China is that the fall of ROC in Taiwan left Taiwan for pro-independence Taiwanese making the issue more complicated than what a civil war could ever address. In a civil war there is no dispute over the national identity. However in Taiwan a separate identify is rising as we speak. So now even if Taiwan magically joined PRC it is going to be a ‘hot potato’. (This is really a lesson for communists that they shouldn’t have left problems unresolved for too long. )

对中国而言，问题在于中华民国在台湾的没落让台湾落入了支持台独的台湾人手中，使得问题变得复杂化，不是内战可以解决的。在内战中，对民族身份认同没有争议。然而当我们发言时，在台湾一个单独的身份认同正在上升。所以现在即使台湾神奇地加入中国，它将是一个“烫手山芋”。 （这对共产党人来说真是一个教训，他们不应该留下问题而太久不解决。）

-------------译者：林一凡-审核者：[]_i------------

Dor Kimp
Written Jan 30
I believe we were too rebellious for them to rule. Ming dynasty even restored the name Annam (peaceful South) a name that fell out of use ever since the Tang Dynasty in the hope that we would be more peaceful (lol). Eventually the cost of constantly trying to tame and control us outweighed all the benefits they got from ruling us. So they let us go.
You see every power that tried to exert dominance over Vietnam eventually gave up. We may not be strong enough to stab them but we will make sure they bleed long and slow until they lose all energy to continue. That is how as impossibly as it was the Americans were forced to withdraw from Vietnam. This comes with a (very large) cost of course there is always a trade off between ideology and pragmatism.
And the reason why the same cannot be applied to Taiwan is because the Taiwanese haven't stood up to fight against China. They only have battles of words and useless demonstrations. If the Taiwanese don't dare to fight for themselves then I think they should stop complaining and just accept their country’s fate. In my opinion this is the better option since after all the Taiwanese and the Chinese are ethnically the same people speaking the same language and sharing the same origin. Why divide when you can unite?

我认为我们对他们来说太难统治了。明朝试图恢复自唐朝以来命名的安南（和平的南方），希望我们能够更顺从。最终他们试图统治我们的代价超出了他们的统治利益。所以他们放弃了。
每一个试图控制越南的势力最后都不得不放弃。我们也许没有足够的力量抗衡，但我们让他们不断的流血，最后失去所有的力量。这就是美国为什么不得不从越南撤离。幻想与实际是要付出很大的代价的。
至于台湾为什么不适用于这一点，台湾人太软弱，不敢坚持同中国抗争。他们只会打嘴炮，无用的示威游行。如果台湾人不敢为自己抗争，那就停止抱怨，接受他们岛国的命运。
我认为这是一个很好的选择，大陆和台湾人都是炎黄子孙，说中国话，有共同的文化渊源。能统一为什么要分裂呢？

煮豆持作羹

漉菽以为汁

萁在釜下燃

豆在釜中泣

本自同根生

相煎何太急

Chinese poetry?

中国诗？