为什么中国在人口更多技术更好以及长城保卫的情况下还输给满人（清，金） [美国媒体]

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How come China always lost to the Manchus (Qing Jin) despite having far superior numbers better technology and a great wall guarding its border?

为什么中国在人口更多技术更好以及长城保卫的情况下还输给满人（清，金）


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Paul Denlinger Have lived in China Taiwan and Hong Kong; fluent in Mandarin (written spoken)

Written Mar 3
Paul Denlinger 曾经生活在中国，台湾和香港；普通话流利（书面及口语）
写于3月3日

The Han Chinese were divided into several groups by trade: intellectuals farmers craftsmen and merchants. The intellectuals were mainly in the cities towns and villages and the farmers in the countryside provided the food for sustenance.

汉族按行业分为几个群体：士农工商。士即知识分子主要集中在城镇和村庄，农村的农民则提供粮食来维持生计。

The Manchus were mainly clans based on mobile horsemen. They were much more mobile than the Han Chinese and since northern China is mainly plains this played well to their horses and horsemanship.

满族主要是基于移动骑兵的氏族。他们的机动性比汉族好，因为中国北部主要是平原，这对他们的马匹和马术都有好处。

Effectively the Manchus were able to overrun the countryside which deprived the cities of food and supplies. Without food and supplies the cities fell to the Manchus.

满族能够有效地占领农村，切断了城市的粮食和补给。没有粮食和补给，城市就会落入满族手中。

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Albert Wu Game Developer Art Director
Written Mar 3

Albert Wu游戏开发者，艺术总监
写3月3日

During the Song dynasty
The Song dynasty was never “defeated” completely by the Jurchens but the Jin did take Northern China a territory that was occupied by the Khitan’s Liao Dynasty. This was only possible through the Song-Jin allience to fight the Liao.

宋朝
宋朝从来没有完全被“女真族”击败，但是金确实夺走了中国北方被契丹的辽国占领的一片领土。而宋朝是为了打败辽国而与金结盟才落得这个下场的。

The Song dynasty was very powerful economically but was a disaster militarily. This is because of the way the Song was founded. They built a society that favored Confucian scholars first who preferred diplomacy and paying tributes to their enemies instead of going to war.

宋朝在经济上非常强大，但在军事上就是一场灾难。这源于宋的建国方式。他们建立的王朝青睐那些在外交上主和不主战的儒家学者。

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Song emperors also kept their military or more specifically their generals in check because of the fear that they might gain too much power and overthrow them. This was the reason why the powerful Tang Dynasty before them fell therefore all the ultimate decisions were taken by people who had no idea what they were doing. A soldier was also among the lowest class in that society and for this and the above reasons the military despite having all the technology and good generals at their disposal had a terrible morale.

宋朝皇帝有意抑制军队的发展特别是将军们的权力，因为害怕将领可能会获得太多的权力而推翻他们。这就是在他们之前的强大的唐朝垮掉的原因，所以所有的军事决策都是由外行作出的。而当时士兵在社会地位中处于最低级别，再加上上面的原因，尽管军队拥有一切技术和优秀的将军，但他们的士气却很糟糕。

Besides the military conflicts with the Jin the Song were also engaged in wars against the Tangut’s Xia Dynasty and the Vietnamese to the South all of which were able to repel the Song easily. The Song would repeat the same mistake as with the Jin by allying themselves with the Mongols and everybody knows what happened next.

除了与金朝的军事冲突外，宋朝还参与了对西夏和南方越南的战争，所有这些国家都能轻易击退宋。宋重复了对金时同样的错误，即与蒙古结盟，然后大家都知道接下来发生了什么。

The Mongols did beat the Song but even then it took the Mongols 40+ years to completely defeat the Song.

蒙古人击败了宋朝，但即使是这样，蒙古人还是花了40多年来完全击败宋朝。

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During the Ming dynasty

明朝时期

The Ming dynasty in the other hand was powerful militarily but suffered from corruption. The Manchu conquest of the Ming was only possible because the Ming was crumbling internally for years. Corruption was ramptant their emperors withdrew themselves from duty ，the treasury was drained from all the wars Ming had from all fronts. The Ming’s economy also took the biggest hit from Japan’s invasions of Korea.

相对的，明朝曾有强大的武力，但一直饱受贪腐的困扰。满清能征服明朝唯一的原因就是明朝多年的内部崩坏。腐败猖獗，皇帝不思朝政，明朝因战争不断而导致的国库亏空。。日本对朝鲜的侵略（万历朝鲜战争）对明朝的经济造成了最大的打击。

The Manchu’s were not the direct cause of the downfall of the Ming but the combination of all the above and the failure to suppress the rebellion led by Li Zicheng who sacked the capital of Beijing forcing the Ming emperor to suicide.

满族并不是明朝灭亡的直接原因，以上几个原因和李自成叛军攻陷北京城，明朝崇祯皇帝被迫自杀等多因素造成了明朝灭亡。

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Lastly the last contributing factor for the Manchus’ success was that they were able to get to the other side of the wall. They were let in by a Ming general named Wu Sanghui who defected to the Manchus to avenge his family who were executed by Li Zicheng. The Manchus combined with a huge force comprising of Han defectors then fought to defeat the remnants of the Ming.

满族能够成功的最后一个原因是他们能够经长城入关。李自成灭了明朝守将吴三桂家，为了报复，吴三桂放满族入关。满族协同汉族叛变者打败了明朝残余势力。

Had Wu Sanghui never surrendered to the Manchus Li Zicheng’s Shun Dynasty would’ve been fighting the Manchus. China would’ve been devided for a very long time and you would’ve probably never seen the modern nation of China with all the territories you see now in the map.

如果吴三桂没有投降满族，李自成的大顺王朝将对抗满人。中国就会在很长一段时间内处于分裂状态，你可能就无法看到现在完整中国的版图了。

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Pun Anansakunwat studied at Columbia University
Written Mar 3
At both times Chinese dynasties (Song Ming) had to deal with rebellion.

宋明两朝时期都需要应对叛乱

In the Song dynasty Fang La rebelled in 1120. He managed to capture a large chunk of lands in the south before being defeated in 1121. According to Wikipedia

依据维基百科，宋朝方腊1120年叛乱，在1121年被打败之前他成功占领了南部大量的土地。

Fang La's forces captured Hangzhou and subsequently took control over parts of present-day Jiangsu Zhejiang Anhui and Jiangxi provinces with a total of 52 counties and six prefectures.

方腊占领了现在的杭州，之后又占领了现在的浙江安徽和江西省部分地区总计六州五十二县。

The rebellion despite not well-known weakened the Song dynasty. Song dynasty was never a strong military powerhouse. Soon the Northern Song dynasty fell to the Jin dynasty in 1127.

尽管不知名，但这叛乱削弱了宋朝。宋朝军力一直都不强。不久北宋在1127年亡于金朝。

Similarly Ming dynasty was defeated by the rebels. Its capital was captured by Li Zicheng the leader of the rebellion. The dynasty was actually dissolved even before the Manchus entered China proper.

相似的，明朝也被叛乱打败。首都被李自成叛军占领。明朝实际上在满清入关前就消亡了。

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Another prominent reason would be a decline of the court.

另一个重要的原因是皇庭的衰落。

In both times the emperors were not brilliant. They were not a capable administrator at all. Emperor Huizong of Song despite being a talented poet cared nothing about governmental affairs. He lived lavishly and focused only on art leaving the court in hands of powerful corrupt nobles and eunuchs. Thus many Song generals at the border defected to the Jin.

这两个时代皇帝都不睿智。他们根本就不善于做一个管理者。尽管皇帝宋徽宗是一个有才华的诗人，但是他不关心朝政。他生活得很奢侈，只专注于艺术，让权力落入到强大的腐败贵族和太监手中。因此，宋朝的许多边界将军叛逃到金朝。

Similarly the Chongzhen Emperor of the Ming was again not a capable emperor. He was a steadfast but not smart emperor. Basically he did nothing to aid the population suffered from natural disasters. This led to an empire-wide rebellion under Li Zicheng which destroyed the Ming dynasty. One of the most stupid mistakes that he made was to execute DOZENS of his generals. Then there was no brilliant capable loyal field commander to fight for the Ming anymore.

同样，明朝的崇祯皇帝也不是一个能干的皇帝。他是一个坚定但是不聪明的皇帝。基本上，他一点都没有帮助遭受自然灾害的人民。这导致了在李自成领导下的帝国内部反抗叛乱， 他摧毁了明帝国。他犯的最愚蠢的错误之一是处决了他的几十个将军。然后就没有厉害有能力又忠诚的战地指挥官为明朝打仗了。

Thus numbers technology and the Great Wall meant nothing if the dynasties were rotten from within.

因此，如果王朝从内部开始腐烂，再多技术和长城也将无用武之地。