中国有过欧洲那样的毁灭性战争吗？ [美国媒体]

Has China ever had any devastating warslike Europe?

中国有过欧洲那样的毁灭性战争吗？




Robin Daverman, World traveler
Answered Nov 25
Has China ever had any devastating warslike Europe?
The most devastating wars in China’shistory were foreign invasions by nomadic cultured foreigners, instead of“fighting among cousins” like the ones in Europe. The two most devastating warswere the Mongol invasion in the 13th century, and the Manchu invasion in the17th century.
The Chinese bureaucrats in the CentralGovernment have been conducting census since 500 BC, and this tradition prettymuch continued throughout history, so we have relatively good record in term ofpopulation and households since ancient times. It looks like this:

中国历史上最毁灭性的战争来自于外部游牧民族的入侵，而不是欧洲那样的“兄弟之战”。两次最毁灭性的战争分别是13世纪的蒙古入侵和17世纪的满族入侵。
中央政府官员自公元前500年就开始进行人口普查了，这个传统贯穿着整个中国历史，所以中国历史上的人口和家庭情况有相对良好的历史记录。看起来是这样的：



And here is a sample of the historic datafrom various censuses during different dynasties.
These records are further backed byprovincial and city-level census conducted at various times.
Roughly speaking, both the Mongol invasionand the Manchu invasion resulted in population dropping by more than HALF! Incertain provinces where the fight lasted the longest, such as Sichuan province,only about 2.5% of the population survived the Mongol invasion.
You see, ancient China was basicallyorganized as a giant farm with border police. Inside the giant farm, owningarms was per se illegal, fighting usually resulted in BOTH SIDES beingpunished, and trampling field or hurting farm animals were severe crimes.Outside along the border were the hereditary military families, whose job wasto live at the border and defend the country. So Ancient China was not a hardrock where you had to chip away bit by bit, but an egg with a hard shell andsoft yolk inside. Once you break that hard shell, it was pure slaughter, by adifferent people.
Now you can see why China was obsessed withbuilding walls. They kept on building the Great Wall from ~ 200 BC all the wayto 1650 AD! This is why. Great Wall of China
8.2k Views · 196 Upvotes



这是不同朝代口普查的历史数据
不同时期的地方人口普查数据也进一步佐证了这些记录
粗略的说，蒙古和清朝的入侵导致中国人口至少减半！在某些战斗最激烈的省份，比如四川，只有2.5%的人口在蒙古的入侵下幸存了下来。
古代中国基本上是个巨型农场，有边境警察。在这个巨大的农场内，拥有武器是违法的，打斗会导致双方都受到惩罚，践踏农田、伤害家畜是严重的罪行。在外部的边境线上是世袭的军人家庭，他们的职责就是生活在边境、保护国家。所以古代中国不是一块你需要慢慢侵蚀的硬石头，而是一颗外硬内软的鸡蛋。一旦破坏掉那个坚硬的外壳，就成了外族任意宰割的对象了。
现在你知道为什么中国人沉迷于建墙了。他们从公元前200年到公元1650年一直在建造长城。所以成了万里长城。
 
Kang-Lin Cheng, I'm just some guy
Answered Tue
I think a better question would be: DidEurope ever had any devastating wars like China?
Wars in China are no joke. In fact, many ofthe deadliest wars in all of human history happened in China. I’ll list severalwars that China was involved in that killed at least as many people as all ofWWI (you know, the war that was so deadly and great that Westerners thought itwould be the war that would end all wars)
UPDATE: I’ve added numbers since somerequested it. I got my numbers here: List of wars by death toll - Wikipedia
Mongol invasion of China (30 to 40million): some say anywhere from 40% to as high as over 70% of the Chinesepopulation died. Note that Wiki listed this as the total deaths for all ofMongol Conquest, but I’m kind of skeptical. Considering that there are sourcesthat say over 70% of China’s population was wiped out, I think it should behigher.
Manchu invasion of China(25 million+): theworst single massacre of one city happened in this invasion: Ten Days inYangzhou. About 800k plus people were killed. Contrast this with the mostwell-known massacre, Nanjing Massacre, where 300k were killed. That’s almostthree times the death toll!

我觉得更好的问题是：欧洲有过中国那样的毁灭性战争吗？
中国的战争可不是开玩笑。实际上很多人类历史上最致命的战争都发生在中国。我会列出几个致死人数和一战战死人数差不多的中国战争（一战是如此的致命和激烈，以至于当时的西方人认为一战是所有战争的终结者）。
1、蒙古入侵中国（3000万到4000万人）：有人说40%-70%以上的中国人在这次战争中死去。维基百科说这是蒙古入侵导致的所有死亡人数，但是我有点怀疑。考虑到有资料说超过70%的中国人口被消灭，所以我觉得数字应该更高。
满族入侵中国（2500万人以上）：历史上最严重的屠城发生在这次入侵中：扬州十日。大约80万人被杀死。而最着名的南京大屠杀也只有30万人。
 
An Lushan’s Rebellion during the TangDynasty (13 to 36 million): most Chinese people regard Tang to be the greatestera in Chinese history, but they won’t mention the tragedy of An Lushan. It’struly Tang’s darkest era
Taiping Heavenly Kingdom (20 to 100million): This happened in the late-Qing dynasty. It was led by a crazycult-leader maniac. Btw, look at the high end of the death toll! 100 million!That’s more than WWII! (However, I’m pretty skeptical of that number; no waycan Qing dynasty survive for several decades with that amount of loss of life)
Dungan Revolt (同治回变) (20million): Clashes between the Hui people (who were almost entirely Islamic)against the majority Han Chinese. Majority of the non-Muslim population inGansu and Shaanxi Provinces were either killed or forced to flee
I don’t have actual numbers for thefollowing, but I’m fairly positive that they also caused massive destructionequal to the events I’ve listed above.

唐朝安史之乱（1300万到3600万）：大部分中国人认为唐朝是中国历史上最伟大的时期，但是他们不愿意提及安史之乱，那真的是唐朝最黑暗的时期。
太平天国运动（2000万到1亿）：这个发生在晚清。由疯狂的宗教疯子领导。最高达到了1亿人，比二战还高。不过我很怀疑这个数据，如果死了这么多人，清朝不可能还能继续存在几十年。
同治回变（2000万）：伊斯兰回族和汉人的冲突。甘肃和陕西的大部分非穆斯林人口都被杀死或被迫逃离。
以下的事件我没有准确的数据，但是我相当肯定以下事件所造成的破坏性比肩上面的。
 
The Five Barbarians (五胡乱华): 200year era where the northern five tribes conquered northern China after Jindynasty fell into chaos. During this time, entire counties were completelywiped out. The genocide committed during this time was so awful, that one ofthe Hu tribe, the Jie, was entirely wiped out.
Warring States (战国时代): Likean earlier version of Wu Hu (see above). You have multiple kingdoms allstruggling to conquer each other. The winner, Qin Shi Huangdi, was a sadisticbastard during his reign as emperor, so no way was he a nice guy when conqueringthe other kingdoms in his youth. Besides, you don’t conquer China by beingnice.
Five Dynasties Ten Kingdoms (五代十国): Thishappened at the end of Tang dynasty. Please see the above two points. Anotherera when China was fractured into several competing kingdoms trying to conquereveryone else.
This is actually just a small list. I’mpretty sure there were a lot more wars in Chinese history that I’m forgettingor understating. But I think this should give you a good idea of how utterlychaotic and devastating wars have been to China.
8.4k Views · 280 Upvotes

五胡乱华：总共200年，北方五个部落在晋朝陷入混乱后征服了中国北方。期间，整个郡县被完全摧毁。这期间的大屠杀太可怕了，羯（匈奴中的白奴）被完全灭族。
战国时代：好比早期版本的五胡乱华。多个战国互相征服。赢家秦始皇在担任国王期间就是个虐待狂，所以年纪轻轻的他在征服其他国家时可不会心慈手软。而且，当好人可征服不了中国。
五代十国：这发生在唐朝末期。参考上面两个。这个时期中国也分裂成了多个王国相互征服。
我只列举了部分。肯定还有很多我所忘记的或者被我低估的中国战争。但是这些足以说明中国的战争多么的混乱和毁灭性。
 
Hoang Nghiem (严黄)
Tue · 9 upvotes including Kang-Lin Cheng
Don’t forget the Three Kingdoms War(220–280 AD) Kang. 40 million or 2/3 of Han China dead in only 60years, enough to make the people of those days think that there was no way theMiddle Kingdom could ever prosper again!

别忘了三国（公元220-280年）。4000万或者三分之二汉人在60年时间里死去，足以让当时的中国人认为中央王国永没有繁荣的可能。
 
Chen Yankai
Tue · 4 upvotes including Kang-Lin Cheng
Northern five tribes people lived in Chinafor hundreds of years before the Great Chaos, Bro. It’s not so accurate to callit an invasion.

在五胡乱华之前，这五个北方部族早就在中国生活了几百年了。所以称之为入侵不太准确。
 
Richard Seeto
Tue · 2 upvotes including Kang-Lin Cheng
Is the Japanese war of aggression in Chinaduring WW 2 counted? Western media reported 20 million Chinese lost their livesbut the way the Japanese were killing the people it could be as high as 60million. Who would really know?

二战日本入侵中国算吗？西方媒体报道称2000万中国人死亡，但是日本人那种杀人方式，可能致死6000万都有可能。谁知道呢？
 
Desmond Ng, A Chinese by birth, a Chineseby upbringing.
Answered Nov 25
Quick game! Guess which civil war has thehighest death toll through all of history. The American Civil War? Nope. TheRussian Civil War? Nada. The Rwanda Civil Wars? The one in Sri Lanka? Sudan?The Troubles? Yemen perhaps? Not even close.
The deadliest civil war in history was theChinese Taiping Rebellion, where 20 MILLION people lost their lives. To putthis into perspective, this is more or less equal to all the ones I’ve listedabove.
So yes, China has had more than its fairshare of destructive conflicts.
672 Views · 21 Upvotes

猜猜哪次内战致死最多人？美国内战？不是。俄罗斯内战？不是。卢旺达内战？斯里兰卡内战？苏丹？北爱尔兰？也门？都不是。
历史上最致命的内战是中国的太平天国运动，2000万人牺牲。相当于上面所提及内战的总和。
 
Dan Holliday, worked at InformationTechnology
Answered Nov 25
China’s geography has been more anemablefor unification than Europe. Where Europe fractured into smaller polities afterthe decline of the Roman Empire, China went through centuries of fracturing andreuniting. Where Europe’s wars were international, China’s were largelydomestic. The 20th century saw the bloodiest conflicts within bothsub-continental regions. In Europe it was the two World Wars (20 million and55–80 million respectively); in China it was the Civil War (2.5–6 million) thruthe Cultural Revolution (with unknown millions: 10–20 million the likely range).
943 Views · 14 Upvotes

比起欧洲，中国的地理更适合统一。在罗马帝国衰弱后欧洲分裂成了众多小国，中国经历了几千年的分裂和统一。欧洲的战争是国与国之间的，中国大体上是内战。20世纪，两个次大陆都发生了最致命的冲突。在欧洲，是两次世界大战（2000万，5500万到8000万）；在中国，是内战（250万到600万）到文革（有可能在1000万到2000万之间）。
 
Keith Rockefeller, studied History &Political Science at Nebraska Wesleyan University (1990)
Answered Nov 25
It's had several over the centuries. Mostrecently was the combined Sino-Japanese War from 1931 to 1945 and the ChineseCivil War between the Communists and Nationalists that ended in 1947 in victoryfor Mao Zedong and his communist forces.
236 Views · 2 Upvotes

几千年来中国发生过几次毁灭性战争。最近的就是中日战争和国共内战。
 
Niko Vasileas
Answered Wed
The deadliest conflict in human history wasWWII—which for China was from 1937–1945. WWI was the sixth deadliest war inhuman history. The four deadliest conflicts that fall in between were allfought in China at least in part. The deadliest civil war was in China. Andthere have been other conflicts in China. In China’s long history there weremany long periods of peace and flourishing culture but when things went wrongthey could go very wrong.
77 Views · 3 Upvotes

人类历史上最致命的冲突是二战——对于中国就是1937-1945年期间。一战是人类历史上第六致命的战争。而第二到第五致命的战争都发生在中国，至少是部分中国。最致命的内战也发生在中国。中国还发生过其他程度不等的战争冲突。在中国历史上，盛则极盛，衰则极衰。
 
Alexander Shier
Answered Nov 25
Yes. From 475 to 221 B.C. the Era ofWarring States ravaged China before being united under the Qin Dynasty. If youwatch a video about the history of China every year, you will see how many warsChina has fought. Mostly internal wars. Anyway, back to the topic. China begunfighting a massive civil war between the republic and the Communists in 1927,which was interrupted by a Japanese invasion, which completely destroyed thenation, and then after the Japanese were defeated, they fought the civil warfor another 5 years. Arguably, the war in China during World War II was worsethan the war in Europe. China has had as violent of a past, if not moreviolent, than Europe.
317 Views · 2 Upvotes

有的。公元前475到221年，秦统一中国前的战国时期。如果你看过一个每一年的中国历史视频，你就知道中国到底打了多少场战争。大部分是内战。回到话题。1927年国共发起巨大的内战，被日本入侵所打断，完全摧毁了这个国家，在日本被打败后，又打了五年内战。二战期间的中国战场比欧洲战场惨烈。中国的战争史至少和欧洲一样惨烈。
 
Wolf Eisen
Answered Nov 25
Yes in fact, quite a bit actually.
The Taiping rebellion is said to have had adeath range estimate of around 20-30 millions ppl. That is more than WW1already.
The Qing dynasty conquest of the Mingdynasty estimate death range around 25 million
An Lushan Rebellion cause estimate death rangearound 30mil
Conquest of Timur range around 8-20 mildeaths.
Japanese conquest of China is alsodevastating around 22 mil deaths
...etc
Now I am no God to know the true deathtolls of these wars and all of these are based off source. But they are prettybloody and devastating I would say.
I would attribute most of these deaths dueto starvation, disease..etc
303 Views · 4 Upvotes

有。太平天国死亡人数预计在2000万到3000万之间。这比一战多。
清朝征服明朝预计死亡2500万。
安史之乱预计致死3000万。
帖木儿东征致死800到2000万。
日本侵略中国大约2200万。
等等。。。
我不是上帝，不知道这些战争确切的死亡数据，但是这些战争应该都是很血腥和毁灭性的。
我觉得大部分的死亡是因为饥饿和疾病等等。