【 Quora 】:联合国其它国家为何不承认加泰罗尼亚独立？ [美国媒体]

Since Catalonia is "independent", why isn't it recognised by any UN state?

【 Quora 】:联合国其它国家为何不承认加泰罗尼亚独立？





Because objectively, the separatists’ methods of achieving “independence” is in direct contravention of the UN’s 4 fundamental principles. These principles are:
Peace and Security
Human Rights
Rule of Law
Development
Now let’s look at the situation in Spain. Spain is a peaceful country. In 2017 according to the Global Peace Index, Spain was ranked 23rd most peaceful country in the world, higher than the likes of France, UK and the USA. Spain is secure and is not at war with any other country as of 2017. Spain is a decmoract and free country ever since 1978 and is member of the EU which means it is a signatory of the EU Charter of Human Rights. Ever since its accession into the EU, Spain has respected this Charter and has not violated any of its clauses. Spain is a strong democracy with strong rule of law and its citizens look to the State to maintain the rule of law for all. Everyone in Spain is equal in front of the law, no matter your ethnicity, wealth, gender etc; justice is blind in Spain as it is in most other stable developed democracies. And finally, Spain is committed to ensuring all its citizens can have the best footing and standard of living within its borders providing world class essential services such as universal healthcare and education.

因为客观上，分裂主义者实现“独立”的方式直接违反了联合国的四项基本原则。这些原则是：
和平与安全
人权
法治
发展权
现在我们来看看西班牙的情况。西班牙是一个和平的国家。 2017年，根据“全球和平指数”，西班牙排名世界第23位，远高于法国，英国和美国。西班牙是安全的，到2017年还没有与任何其他国家发生过战争。自1978年以来，西班牙是一个十分自由的国家，是欧盟成员，同时它也是“欧盟人权宪章”的签署国。自从加入欧盟以来，西班牙一直遵守“宪章”，没有违反任何条款。西班牙是一个强有力的法治民主国家，其公民期待国家维护所有人的法治。西班牙的每个人在法律面前都是平等的，无论你的种族，财富，性别等等。西班牙的正义是盲目的（译者加：表示无论是谁，不会徇私枉法，公平公正，源自古希腊神话菲蜜丝Themis正义女神），正如在大多数其他稳定发达的民主国家一样。最后，西班牙致力于确保所有公民在其境内拥有最好的生活水平，提供世界级的基本服务，如全民医疗和教育。

So what of the Catalan independence? Well firstly, Catalonia as a part of Spain, means that the UN pillars are observed and respected within Catalonia. The Catalans are not persecuted and are free to participate in the process of law making and governing of the nation through their democratically elected Congreso de Diputados. Further, Catalans have a high degree of autonomy, expressed through their regional Generalitat . Now being a part of a democracy means that there are rules that every citizen must abide by, the ultimate of which is the Constitution. The Constitution of Spain is considered perfectly aligned with the fundamental democratic principles of expression and liberties, otherwise the EU would have never accepted Spain. This Constitution, explicitly prohibits any action from being taken that will (or intend to) threaten the territorial integrity of Spain. So the Catalan separatists, by proceeding with a vote that was deemed unconstitutional and illegal and by bulldozing the elected members of the Generalitat as well as organising a completely corrupt vote as violated the UN’s 3 fundamental principle: the Rule of Law.

那么加泰罗尼亚的独立呢？首先，加泰罗尼亚是西班牙的一部分，意味着联合国核心精神在加泰罗尼亚境内得到遵守和尊重。加泰罗尼亚人没有受到迫害，可以自由参加民主选举产生的议会的法律制定和国家治理。此外，加泰罗尼亚人拥有高度的自治权，通过其地区总司表达。而其作为民主的一部分，意味着每个公民都必须遵守规则，尤其是宪法。西班牙宪法是被认为完全符合基本的民主表达和自由原则，否则欧盟将永远不会接受西班牙。本“宪法”明确禁止采取任何行动来威胁西班牙的领土完整（或打算威胁）西班牙的领土完整。因此，加泰罗尼亚分离主义分子通过进行违宪和非法的投票，推翻民选议员，进行完全腐败的投票，违反了联合国的第三项基本原则：法治。

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How would their opinion matter to define what would be real or not ?
In this map, only the states in blue acknowledge Taiwan (Republic of China):
The UN, when it was created, gave a Security Council seat to the Republic of China… it’s still written in the UN charter. Now, the seat was given to the People’s Republic of China. President De Gaulle of France once called it “le machin” (the thing). He had no special consideration for it. The UN simply does not matter and today even less than in 1945.

联合国的承认意见什么的真的很重要吗？
在这幅地图上，只有蓝色的国家承认台湾（中华民国）：
联合国在成立时给了安理会一个中华民国的席位，现在还写在联合国宪章里。现在这个席位已经交给了中华人民共和国。法国总统戴高乐曾把它称为“乐器”（玩物）。他认为此不再重要。联合国无关紧要，今天重要性甚至比1945年还要少。

So in the end, it’s simply a game of power, as usual, and even within the UN itself. Catalonia will be considered independent if someday it manages to project enough strength, and it won’t until it won’t.
It doesn’t even matter how they get independence. They could be a 5 % minority that rule the entire state. If they are able to impose their rule, they win. It could be an insurrection. If they are able to impose their rule, they win. The Spanish Constitution doesn’t matter; if they are able to make it null de facto, they win. Even Haiti was acknowledged eventually. Even the USSR was acknowledged eventually. Very reluctantly, but it was.

所以最终，这只不过是像往常一样的权力游戏，甚至在联合国内部。只要有朝一日它愿意为此付出足够的力量，加泰罗尼亚将被视为独立的，但是它自己不愿意去如此去做，所以永远不会。
他们如何获得独立并不重要。他们可能只是统治整个国家的5％的少数派。如果他们能够强加他们的独立统治，他们就赢了。这可能是一场起义。如果他们能够做到加强他们独立事实，他们就赢了。西班牙宪法没有关系，因为独立事实可以把宪法变成空的，他们就赢了。甚至海地也最终得到承认。甚至苏联最终也被承认了。虽然说出来很不情愿，但事实就是如此 。

What matters is: who rules?
What people thinks about the does not.
What laws, conventions, treaties say do not.
The way rule is obtained does not either.
The form of the regime does not matter either. People have no reluctance at all dealing with authoritarian regimes. Human rights are an elastic concept.
The world respects power. When you have power, doors are opened, crimes are forgotten, laws are arranged, and so on. This is why “of course” Taiwan does not exist. You don’t get business opportunities from China when Taiwan exists, so it does not.

重要的是：谁的规则？
人们所想的不是
什么法律，公约，条约。说不。
规则是怎么产生的不重要。
政权的形式也不重要。人们一点也不愿意面对专制政权。人权也是一个可以被弹性处理的概念。（译者加：暗讽下句的宁愿与“专制”的中国贸易，也不会承认所谓有人权的台湾）
世界尊重权力。当你有权力，门被打开，犯罪被遗忘，法律也被改变，等等。这就是“当然”台湾不被承认的原因。台湾被承认的时候，与中国就没有经贸往来，所以不会承认台湾。

…and yet, on the ground, when you go there, something exists. Things do not wait to be acknowledged to exist. This is why ordinary world maps are deceiving if you take them seriously. Look at the world beyond them.
Perhaps Catalonia exists. You would simply not be aware. You don’t need the opinion of the UN states to make yourself an idea about it. Go visit them and decide by yourself. Many things exist in the world, like sovereign indigenous nations, an actual FARC state in Colombia, like uncontacted tribes that would find Brazil or India’s claim on their territory ridiculous, and so on. There are more intelligents ways at looking at the world than what UN states think.

...然而，在这片土地上，当你诞生时，有一些东西本来就存在。它不需等待被承认。这就是为什么那些世界地图在欺骗你，如果你还执着相信的话。看看他们之外的世界。
也许加泰罗尼亚已经存在。然而你根本没意识到。不需要联合国的意见，只要你自己有此想法。去拜访他们，自己决定。世界上有很多东西像主权，土着民族，哥伦比亚的哥伦比亚革命武装力量，实际上是一个像巴勒斯坦或印度在其领土上的的部落的不受约束的荒谬主张，等等。这个世界上有着很多远超联合国的聪明想法来洞悉这个世界。

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about I parallel this with Taiwan. It’s not a country. For such a huge economy and population this is quite insane but that’s how it is. They have the same sort of problems that Catalonia faces:
No one wants to piss off the big trading partner that recognizing Taiwan would piss off (in Taiwan’s case it is mainland China).
Others are consistently anti-separatist.
Others are simply playing realpolitik.

怎么能把这个和台湾相提并论呢？台湾不是一个国家！对于中国如此巨大的经济和人口来说，这种想法相当疯狂的，但事实却是。他们台湾遇到了与加泰罗尼亚面临的同样的问题：
谁也不敢承认台湾从而惹火一个超大贸易伙伴（台湾就是中国大陆的）。
其他国家一贯反对分裂主义。
其他国家只是玩真实的政治。

Catalonia is in the same boat. Their declaration of independence is completely irrelevant. The problems are thus:
No state in EU will recognize them because the game of promoting self-determination is a realpolitik war between the EU and Russia. It has nothing to do with caring about human rights. Therefore the sanctity of EU polities must be maintained, while Europe’s enemies must be shattered into a million pieces.
Most of the other European states are staunchly anti-separatist for historical reasons.
Those European states that would be pro-Catalonia do not want to piss off the EU and harm their trade relations.

台湾和加泰罗尼亚在同一条船上。他们的独立宣言本身是互无关联的。问题是：
欧盟的任何国家都不会承认它们，因为推动自决的游戏是欧盟和俄罗斯之间的一场现实政治战争。这与关心人权毫无关系。因此，欧盟政治的神圣性必须得到维护，而欧洲的敌人必须破碎成一百万件。
欧洲其他大多数国家由于历史原因坚决反对分裂主义。
那些将成为亲加泰罗尼亚的欧洲国家不希望贬低同欧盟关系，损害它们的贸易关系。

Canada is staunchly anti-separatist because we have our own separatism problem. We’ve been consistent on this position since forever and the public is hugely in favour of a federalist approach.
USA probably doesn’t give a shit and can’t even find Catalonia on a map.
China is anti-separatist and technically never resolved their civil war. Fat chance of getting them to support Catalonia.
The only places that would support independence are Russia, mid-east non-US allies and probably every country in Africa. Unfortunately, many of those nations are places that Catalans don’t like (Russia or mid-east) or have no relations (much of Africa).

加拿大坚决反分裂主义，因为我们有自己的分裂主义问题。我们始终坚持这一立场，平民也则非常赞成加拿大政府的做法。
美国不可能去搅屎，它们甚至无法在地图上找到加泰罗尼亚。
中国是反分裂主义，客观上从未解决过内战。得到他们支持加泰罗尼亚的机会很小。
唯一支持独立的地方是俄罗斯，中东的非美国盟友，也可能是非洲的每一个国家。不幸的是，这些国家中有许多是加泰罗尼亚人不喜欢的地方（俄罗斯或中东），或者是和他们没有任何关系的非洲（非洲大部分地区）。

Here’s the thing, a people don’t declare independence because it is easy, they declare it because they believe strongly in their own right for self-determination. The question is whether Catalans are willing to die for independence because anything less will get you worse than nothing. Basque was not that long ago.
I’m a federalist but this is Spain’s (and Catalonia’s) problem to resolve and not for me to decide upon. I can only present to you the stark reality of the politics of the United Nations. It’s not pretty and everyone is playing for keeps.

事情是这样的，没有人愿意宣布独立，即便这很容易，他们宣布，他们坚信自己的自决权。问题是加泰罗尼亚人是否愿意为独立而死，因为缺少这种精神会让你变得更糟。巴斯克不久以前也是这样。
我是联邦主义者，但这是西班牙（和加泰罗尼亚）的问题，而不是我决定的。我只能向你们介绍联合国政治的严酷现实。这不是很美，但就是这么玩的。