女儿国：男人永远不是老大的西藏部落 [英国媒体]

-------------译者：Amelia-审核者：Amelia------------



Imagine a society without fathers; without marriage (or divorce); one in which nuclear families don’t exist. Grandmother sits at the head of the table; her sons and daughters live with her along with the children of those daughters following the maternal bloodline. Men are little more than studs sperm donors who inseminate women but have more often than not little involvement in their children’s upbringing.

设想一个没有父亲的社会。不结婚（不离婚），家里的不存在核心成员（父亲）的社会。奶奶的家庭地位是最重要，她的儿女们与女儿的孩子们，按照母系血缘与她生活在一起。男人们更像是负责令女人怀孕的种马，很少参与抚养孩子。

This progressive feminist world – or anachronistic matriarchy as skewed as any patriarchal society depending on your viewpoint – exists in a lush valley in Yunnan south-west China in the far eastern foothills of the Himalayas. An ancient tribal community of Tibetan Buddhists called the Mosuo they live in a surprisingly modern way: women are treated as equal if not superior to men; both have as many or as few sexual partners as they like free from judgment; and extended families bring up the children and care for the elderly.

这个女权主义世界--或者你可以认为，这是与父系社会一样过时的母系社会。处于中国西南部云南省，位于喜马拉雅山脉的东部的一个山谷中。
源于藏传佛教徒名为摩梭的古老部落，她们有着惊人的现代生活方式，女人被视为与男人平等的，男女双方都拥有的或多或少的性伴侣，他们依照自己的喜好做决定。增加家庭成员，抚养孩子并赡养老人。

 But is it as utopian as it seems? And how much longer can it survive?

这像不像一个乌托邦？这种生活方式，还能持续多久呢？（走婚的摩梭族人）

-------------译者：hanjiabaike-审核者：bs1747------------



Choo Waihong set about finding out. A successful corporate lawyer from Singapore she left her job in 2006 to travel. Having trained and worked in Canada the US and London she felt drawn to visit China the country of her ancestors. After reading about the Mosuo she decided to take a trip to their picturesque community – a series of villages dotted around a mountain and Lugu Lake – as many tourists do. But something beyond the views and clean air grabbed her.

朱伟鸿（音译）开始着手寻找这些问题的答案。她是新加坡一位成功的公司律师，于2006年辞职后开始旅行。在加拿大、美国、伦敦培训和工作过后，她产生了游览中国的兴趣——那个她祖先的国度。在读到有关摩梭的资料后，她决定去拜访那个散落在大山中如画般的社区，并像许多外国游客一样游览泸沽湖。但一些美好景色和清新空气之外的东西深深吸引了她。

“I grew up in a world where men are the bosses” she says. “My father and I fought a lot – he was the quintessential male in an extremely patriarchal Chinese community in Singapore. And I never really belonged at work; the rules were geared towards men and intuitively understood by them but not me. I’ve been a feminist all my life and the Mosuo seemed to place the female at the centre of their society. It was inspiring.”

“我成长于一个男性主导的世界”，她说，“父亲和我经常吵架，他是极重父权的新加坡华人社区里的一个典型男性。我在工作中从来没有归属感，所有规则都面向男性，且能被他们男性的思维直观理解，而非像我这样的女性。我一直是一个女权主义者，摩梭似乎将女性置于他们社会的中心。这很让人振奋。”




-------------译者：dantepushkin-审核者：bs1747------------

The7inOne
hehehe... haaa. All those completely free women finding so much fulfillment in motherhood. Talk about a mixed message to western feminists. 

呵呵。。。哈。所有这些完全自主的妇女在母性上得到那么大的满足感。这可会让那些西方的女权主义者心情复杂吧。

ProbablyOnTopic
I'm not the one complaining. 

我并不是反对的一员

pj8787
it is common for women not to know who the father of their children is and there is no stigma attached to this ? they have considerable responsibility as uncles to their sisters' children. In fact along with elderly maternal great-uncles who are often the households' second-in-charge younger uncles are the pivotal male influence on children. 
Surely this shows the attitude of feminists towards fathers and the lack of acknowledgement of any sort of connection between fathers and children. This is awful- I would like fathers to have the option of being a part of their children's lives and upbringing and not case to the side as being mere 'sperm donors.' 

对妇女来说不知道她们孩子的生父是件平常的事情而且也毫无羞愧？作为舅舅他们对自己姐妹的孩子具有重大的责任。实施上，在母系社会里，年纪较小的舅舅们与通常作为家里二把手的舅外祖父们一道，是孩子们重要的男性影响源。。显然这透视出女权主义者对父亲角色的态度和对父亲跟孩子关系认知的缺失。这很糟糕-我更希望父亲们有选择参与养育孩子的权利而不只是作为一个“精子捐赠者”。

-------------译者：dantepushkin-审核者：bs1747------------

Gramercy
A pride of lionessses 

母狮子的骄傲

bcarey
I think you're right about that! 

我想你是对的！

Dannybald
What does Japan have to do with anything. 

日本跟这个有什么关系

Lush Life
Shouldn't that be Queendom? 

那不应该是“后国”吗？（相对于王国）

Dannybald
What a hideous sexist hell hole. And to think otherwise is hypocrisy beyond belief. 

真是个荒诞的性别主义猪圈。所有不认同的都是伪善得不得了的人

Lush Life
The Tibetan former warlord monk and now head of a deep house collective kreemuvsum yunguy did a great interview in 2008 for Vice but I can no longer find the lix. 

西藏前僧人军阀，现任“深浩音乐收藏“的头头kreemuvsum yunguy在2008年跟vice做了一个很棒的採访，但我现在已经找不到连结了。

 -------------译者：dantepushkin-审核者：bs1747------------

JesusCakes
Indeed the author has a fundamental misunderstanding of ethnic classification in China. And nobody refers to them as tribes! 

作者果真对中国的民族分类有严重的认知误差。没有人管他们叫部落！

JesusCakes
Absolute rubbish. The Han are most definitely a distinct ethnic group with their own language and culture. My wife is Han Chinese and the idea that she is merely a product of the Chinese government is deeply insulting. You're basically saying the Han are a manufactured construct - wise up bud they've been around for a lot longer than the English the Americans and for what it's worth the modern Tibetan identity. shanshuitianqi is absolutely right these people are not Tibetan but a Chinese ethnic group. Whether they are Han or not is pretty much irrelevant though. 

完全是垃圾。汉人绝对是一个拥有自己语言和文化的独立民族群体。我妻子是中国汉人而去说她纯粹是中国政府的一件产品是极其的侮辱。你的意思就是说汉人只是人造的物件- 小样涨点知识吧，他们存在的历史比英国美国人都要久远，更别说现代的西藏人概念。 shanshuitianqi说的很对，这些人都不是西藏人，只是中国人里面的一个少数民族。至于他们是不是汉人则没什么关系了。

-------------译者：dantepushkin-审核者：bs1747------------

JesusCakes
...do you know how long ago that was? 

。。。你知道这是多久以前的事吗？

bcarey
The Kingdom of Women by Choo Waihong is published by IB Tauris This is a must-read. Just pre-ordered it on Amazon. 

朱伟鸿（choo waihong）写的“女人的王国”由 ib tauris出版，一定要看，我已经在亚马逊上预购了。

goodgollymsmolly
No I don't think that was implied at all. It's the reasoning behind it that matters you know? You prefer not to sleep around and that's cool- but if women are denying their sexuality in the hopes that men will find them acceptable wife material that's (to me) a sad thing 

不，我不觉得这是所表达的意思。重要的是这背后的逻辑你懂吗？你选择不到处乱睡这很好- 但如果女性纯粹因为希望男性觉得自己更适合作为妻子的对象而去压抑自己的性欲我觉得是很悲哀的。

goodgollymsmolly
Agree 100% 

百分百同意

-------------译者：dantepushkin-审核者：bs1747------------

Woolven Jonathon 
Tibet really truly is the greatest most equal place on Earth. A place that has never known anger starvation corruption or fear. 

西藏真是这地球上最最平等的地方。一个从来没有过愤怒饥荒贪腐或恐惧的地方。

Mark Kavanagh
The Celts had the Brehan Laws which gave these rights a child answered to their mother's brother as father women's property rights divorce etc. Tacitus records the fact of a womens council amongst the Germania tribes too. 

凯特人的勃翰法（Brehon Laws)允许孩子认他们母亲的兄弟作父亲，也赋予妇女个人产权和离婚权等等权力。 塔西佗（古罗马元老院议员，历史学家）也记载了日耳曼部落中存在着一个女性委员会的事实。

goodgollymsmolly
"This progressive feminist world ? or anachronistic matriarchy as skewed as any patriarchal society" It's not feminist at all. It's the second one. 

这是个渐进的女权主义世界？还是只是个扭曲成父权主义社会一样的老朽母系社会？这完全不是女权主义。这是后者。

PeMoJo54
In Kim Kipling gives a very good descxtion of the woman of Shamlegh who lives a life similar to that described. And he tells it well. 

在《基姆》这部作品里，吉卜林很好的描绘了山莱（Shamlegh）女性的生活，类似本文中的女性生活。

-------------译者：dantepushkin-审核者：bs1747------------

curiouswes
I think I'd have to disagree. Mostly I stick with what I think I know - feminism - which makes me in here anyway pretty monotonous. Well at this point anyway I find your posting intriguing while Jessica Velenti "monotonous". She turns a non-sexist issue into a sexist issue as well as anybody. But this isn't about her thoughts but rather yours instead. You say the Navi were egalitarian whereas I would say they were spiritual. Everything they did was based on spiritual awareness. Spirituality is egalitarian but unfortunately religions have given spirituality a bad name by promoting misogynistic doctrine. I like sci fi also but mostly for philosophical reasons even though science intrigues too. I like truth and there is truth in science I think. There is also truth in philosophy. That being said Avatar was shortly my favorite sci-fi movie until the Matrix retook the lead when I found something in one of its not too good sequels that I missed in a previous viewing (I had to watch the sequels in order to make the original make sense). As a male I sell out on feminism until I feel discriminated against. I think your approach is fair and fairness is all I ask of a feminist. We're all in this together. For the record both the Matrix and Avatar were superficially pro male but looking deeply into the themes they were pro female. Sort of refreshing to put out those themes in a plausibly deniable way. Still very very powerful movies 

我想我需要反对。我主要说说我所知道的 - 女性主义 - 是让我来评论的理由 还挺乏味的。目前而言我觉得你的评论很有趣而jessica velenti 很乏味。 她试图将一个跟性别无关的事情变成跟性别有关。 但这反而跟你的想法有关。 你说navi是平等主义但我认为它们是精神主义。他们做的事情都是基于灵魂觉醒的。灵魂领域是平等但遗憾的是很多宗教的教义都把女性地位贬低了，这也让灵魂污名化了。 我也喜欢科幻片，虽然科学也很吸引但主要还是因为哲学上的理由。 我喜欢真相，而因为真相存在在科学和哲学里，我也喜欢这它们。。。。。。。一大堆啰哩啰嗦的！真后悔接了这个翻译我的妈！
主要就是说他虽然是个男的可是他支持女权主义，然后骇客任务和阿凡达虽然表面上是男权主义可是内核却是女性主义
这家伙可真能扯！！！！

-------------译者：dantepushkin-审核者：bs1747------------

JRS1
But is it as good for women as it sounds ? and how long can it last? Fuck me. 

但这对女性来说是不是真的好呢？而这又可以维持多久呢？日我。

Mark Kavanagh
You know where your coat is! ;-] 

你知道你的大衣在哪！ ;-]

third_eye
No it doesn't. But sheer muscles explains why if push comes to shove men invariably rule the roost. The inequity in the muscles department may suggest that in compensation women should have the advantage 'upstairs' but sadly there's no clear evidence of that. 

这并不是。但只谈肌肉的话能解释为什么当考验来临时男性无一例外地统治栖所。这在肌肉上的不对等或许代表女性可能在脑袋方面得到补偿优势，可惜这并没有证据支持。

andoru
Well that wasn't my claim. 

这不是我的主张。

ProbablyOnTopic
Hang on. So if men are in charge men get the better deal and if women are in charge men get the better deal? Classic Guardian. You should work here.

等一下。所以当男人作主的时候男人有更好的待遇而当女人作主的时候男人也有更好的待遇？卫报的思维啊，你应该在这里工作。