“我的工作是清理环境。中国真的想这么做” [英国媒体]

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James Thornton’s specialty is suing governments and corporations on behalf of his only client – the Earth – and he’s very good at it. In his four decades of legal practice across three continents he’s never lost a case.

詹姆斯·桑顿（James Thornton）的专长是代表他唯一的客户 - 地球 - 起诉政府和公司，他非常擅长。 在横跨三大洲四十年的法律实践中，他从未败诉。

Acknowledging this in 2009 the New Statesman named him one of the ten people likely to change the world; ClientEarth the public interest environmental law firm he started in London in 2007 now employs 106 people.

因此，《新政治家周刊》在2009年把他称为十个可能改变世界的人之一； 2007年，他在伦敦创办了环境公益律师事务所，ClientEarth，目前该事务所旗下拥有106名员工。

Thornton has been in Australia to talk about his work and his new book Client Earth which he co-wrote with his partner Martin Goodman. When I met them in Sydney Thornton was keen to discuss his unlikely adventure in China while Goodman usually a reserved Englishman enthused about the unexpected hope he found while writing Client Earth.

在澳大利亚时，桑顿一直谈论他的工作和他的新书，《Client Earth》，他与他的合伙人马丁·古德曼（Martin Goodman）合着。 当我在悉尼遇到他们时，桑顿热衷于讨论他在中国不可思议的冒险，而古德曼（通常表现为一名含蓄的英国人）则热衷于在撰写《Client Earth》时发现的意外之喜。

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First invited to Beijing in 2014 to help implement China’s new law allowing NGOs to sue polluting companies for the first time Thornton has seen how serious the world’s biggest polluter is about addressing its environmental problems. He believes their concept of “ecological civilisation” is the best formulation he’s heard for the new environmental story we must tell.

从第一次于2014年受邀到访北京，帮助贯彻实施中国头一遭容许非政府组织状告污染企业的新法律以来，桑顿先生已经看见这个世界上最大的污染国是多么认真地着手解决它的环境问题。他相信他们的“生态文明”的理念是，针对我们必须讲述的新的环境报道，他所听到过的最棒的规划。

“Facing the ruin of their environment the Chinese looked hard and amended their constitution. This core document now calls for the building of an ecological civilisation” he says. “We built an agricultural then an industrial and now must build an ecological civilisation.”

“面对他们的环境破坏，中国人看得很仔细并且修正了他们的法规。这份核心的文件现在提倡生态文明的建设”他说道，“我们建设过农业文明，然后工业文明，现在必须建设生态文明了”

“I have no cynicism about whether they mean to do it. My job is to try and clean up the environment for future generations. The Chinese really want to do that.” This task apparently insurmountable for the west is made possible by China’s 2500-year tradition of centralised government.

“我不会对他们是否打算这么做冷嘲热讽，我的工作就是尽全力为后代们治理环境。中国人真的需要这么做“ 这项任务很明显对于西方而言难以达成，但对于有着2500年中央集权制传统的中国政府，它是可以达成的。

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“They said we have a long-term vision we want to be here in another 2000 years and that will only happen if we clean up the environment. So we have determined that we’re going to deal with our environmental problems and we’re going to do so in a very thoroughgoing way.”

“他们说，我们有一个长期的愿景，那就是希望下一个2000年能继续生活在这里，而只有我们整顿了环境这一目标才能够实现。所以我们决定，将以一种彻底的方式解决环境问题。”

Thornton said it helps that most of the politburo are engineers rather than political scientists lawyers or economists as in the west. “So when they actually decide that there is a problem – and it takes actual evidence to get them there – they define the problem and then their next question is: what’s the solution? How can we afford it how quickly can we do it and how can we marshal all forces in society to get there?”

Thornton 说，在中国，大部分政治局成员是工程师，而非如西方一样的政治学家、律师或经济学家，这一点很重要。“因此当他们切实地认为问题存在，并且有真实的证据使他们做出判断，他们就明确问题，而随之而来的下一个问题是：解决方法是什么？我们能承担怎样的代价？我们能以多快的速度解决？以及我们如何整合社会各界力量以达成目的？”

At first Thornton thought this was rhetoric. “And then I realised it wasn’t rhetorical. So by the time we got deep into conversation and I first heard the notion of ecological civilisation I asked several very senior officials ‘Is this serious?’ And they said ‘Yes absolutely serious’. It’s been central policy now for some years.”

起初Thornton认为这只是华丽的辞藻。“而之后我意识到并非如此。在我们进一步深入对话前和我第一次听到了生态文明的概念时，我问了几位相当高级的官员：那是认真的吗？他们说，是，绝对如此。它已经成为核心政策很多年了。”

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With a group of Chinese experts and five other westerners Thornton spent 18 months analysing how to create the legal structures for an ecological civilisation. They then gave recommendations for how to create the rule of law to deliver it. “That’s typical of what they’re doing. They’ve thrown hundreds of their best intellectuals at designing the theoretical frxwork for each of the pieces of the architecture of ecological civilisation.” These include economic industrial and agricultural policies for an ecological civilisation.

Thornton，一群中国专家以及5位外国专家一起花了18个月分析如何创建生态文明的法律结构并给出了具体的建议。“这是他们的典型做法。他们动用上百位专家学者为生态文明理论框架建设的每一步出谋划策”。这其中既有工业政策，也包含了农业政策。

Thornton says that when he first went to China he’d only read the western media about it and had many of the same notions he’s often challenged with especially concerning democracy and human rights. “And I understand where they come from. But I also know that the western democracies that we prize so much aren’t doing very well with respect to the environment. We’ve elected somebody in the United States who seems really dedicated to the notion of contempt for the environment.”

Thornton表示，当他初到中国时，他只在西方媒体上面了解过中国，因此在民主和人权方面有很多对中国的刻板印象，但如今，他对中国已大有改观。“我知道了这些谣言因何而起，但更重要的是，我意识到，我们一直以来引以为豪的民主在环境方面并没有什么拿得出手的东西，我们已经选了一个对环保极度轻蔑的人当美国总统。”

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In the west efforts to address environmental problems are fragmentary and not well funded. “Whereas in China” he says “suddenly you 
have this direction from the top on down asking all of these top people over the course of the next few decades: How does everything 
have to change to deliver this?”

在西方，解决环境问题力不从心，而且资金不足。“而在中国，”他说，“突然间有了一个自上而下的方针要求所有高层人员在接下来的几十年里都必须遵循:如何做出改变来实现这一目标?”

Thornton is also a Zen Buddhist priest which appears to help him to see intractable environmental problems with a commanding clarity and precision and to approach them with admirable pragmatism patience tenacity and long-term strategy. “Law becomes about saving civilisation” he says. “Law is the answer to the question I’m often asked: what can I do about global problems?”

Thornton同时也是一名佛教信徒，从而在某种程度上使他能够以清晰精准统筹全局的眼光来看待棘手的环境问题，并以令人钦佩的坚韧意志和长期战略手段来处理这些问题。他说:法律变得与拯救文明息息相关。“法”律是我经常被问到的问题的答案:我能对全球性问题做些什么?”


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nottaken
And sometimes a single optimist ( like this lawyer) can bring about change enough to make even a little difference.
Keep following the yellow brick road then.

有时一个乐观主义者（如这位律师）所带来的改变足以使世界有所不同。然后继续沿着金砖路前行吧。

nottaken
george
Your ability to suss out my entire personality and outlook based on a single comment is impressive and can only be explained by remarkable powers of clairvoyance. Further you conclude that not only am I negative but I am actually to blame for environmental problems based on the logic of "if you're not part of the solution etc."(!) Your speculations on my psychological state and standard of living are the climax and neatly tie a bow on your argument in terms of the root causes of my miserabe condition.
If you are comfortable tackling big problems with a cliché- and slogan-based approach knock yourself out ? the world will love you. But remember that's what got Drumpf elected (well that and the Electoral College system).

乔治
您根据一个简单评论就能弄清楚我的个性和观点的能力是令人印象深刻的，只能说你有很卓越的洞察力。 此外，你认为不仅我是悲观的，而且我实际上我将环境问题归咎于一种“如果你不是解决方案的一部分”的逻辑。你对我的心理状态和生活水平的猜测是最精彩的， 严密地将您的论点和我的悲惨情况的根本原因联系在一起。
如果你挺满意这种陈词滥调和空喊口号的解决方法，那随便你？ 世界会爱上你， 但请记住这是使Drumpf当选（和选举团体系）的原因。

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BJer2000
Although doors are often open to shops in summer they're really good about keeping heat in during winter ? huge padded curtains across shop fronts. And also fridges in convenience stores mostly have doors in China.

虽然夏天时商店的门经常开着，但冬天的时候也保持这样真的好吗？巨大的有内衬的窗帘挂在商店前面。中国的便利店的冰箱大部分都有门。

BJer2000
Yes high rises in Shanghai make sense because the population of the city is huge. However we can't pretend that Shanghai is an environmentally friendly city. It's full of huge roads and they're getting more and more. Its buildings are built to a low quality and need to be demolished all the time. Historic and ecologically sustainable houses are being demolished and replaced with cheap high rises with large car parks. But the cities I'm really talking about are the ones in the West ? these cities are building more and more high rises often in the middle of fields (in areas where there is extreme scarcity of water). I'm not saying that Chinese individuals are harming the environment ? obviously individually they are far better than Europeans and Americans. My point is that the way that the government is designing China is modelled on the failed cities of the US Mid-West instead of the traditional high dense walking and cycling cities of East Asia.

是的，上海的高楼越来越多是有道理的，因为上海的人口很巨大。然而我们不能假装上海是一个环境友好的城市。那里满是大路而且数量变得越来越多。他们的建筑是低质量的且需要经常拆毁。历史悠久且生态友好的稳固房子正在被拆毁且被停车场替代。但我真正说的城市是那些西方的城市吗？这些城市经常在城市中心（极度缺水的区域）建设越来越多的高楼。我不是在说中国人是在损害环境？显然他们远比欧洲人和美国人要好。我的观点是政府将中国的城市设计成以美国中西为模板的失败城市，而不是亚洲东部那些传统的行人和单车密集的城市。

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tuowei
I lived in a high rise apartment in a suburb of Shanghai for several years. There are plenty of local shops - I walked from the metro to the shops and then home or I walked from home to the grocers. I never owned a car. My cousin lives in lives in a high-rise in a smaller provincial city. She can afford a car but chooses not too because life is convenient enough. Although car-ownership is growing in China - there are still only 214 cars per 1000 people compared to 797 in the USA and 740 in Australia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita

我在上海郊外的一个高层公寓中居住过几年时间。这里的商店很多，从地铁站走到商店，再到家或者从家里走到杂货店，这一路上都是。我自己没有一辆小汽车。我表妹她居住在一个小一点儿的省会城市，也住在高层公寓里面。她能够买得起小车但是没有买，因为她那里的生活交通很便利。 尽管在中国的汽车保有量一直在增长，但是相比于美国千人的汽车拥有量为797辆，澳洲为740辆，中国目前只有214辆。参考https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita

juantp
True this is not the engineer generation.
Wrong not a single lawyer. 2 engineers (Xi JinPingYu Zhengsheng)
2 economists (Li Ke qiangZhang Gaoli )
1 Korean language (Zhang Dejiang)
1 History (Wang Qishan)
1 Teacher (Liu Yunshan) In any case this is probably anecdotic. We should research who are the guys behind them. I bet probably now laywers

对的，这不是工程师的功劳
错，也不是一个律师的
这是他们的功劳，
2个工程师：习大大，俞正声
2个经济专家：李总理 张高丽
1个韩语专家 张德江
1个历史学家 王岐山
1个教师 刘云山
无论如何，这也许是坊间趣闻。
 我们应该研究的是他们背后有什么高人，我猜其中可能没有律师。

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prematureoptimsim
We mock what we do not understand. ( same as Trump ).

我们嘲讽一些我们不懂的事情，像川普一样

prematureoptimsim
U win the prize for most accurate response.

奖励是你应得的，因为你的准确的回答。

spikebarnes
Yes. That was what I meant.

对，这就是我想说的

prematureoptimsim
I agree fascinating fictional article with a dash of "premature optimism" ! . . . . Now back to reality.

我认为这是一篇精彩的带点儿过于乐观的虚幻文章。现在让我们回到现实。

AnglophileDe
Very interesting article thanks.

非常有趣的文章，谢谢

michaelmichael
I suppose you prefer Christian zealots like Blair Bush or Trump?

我想你应该更喜欢像布莱尔，布什或川普这样的基督教狂热分子吧。

blimeyoreilley
Thornton said it helps that most of the politburo are engineers rather than political scientists lawyers or economists as in the west.
Then Thornton's book must be four years out of date. I am disappointed. It was Hu Jintao's politburo that was made up of engineers. Since 2013 Xi Jin Ping's politburo has been dominated by lawyers.

Thornton 说中国政府大多数的政治局委员是工程师而不是像西方政府大都是政治学家律师或者经济学家，这很有帮助。
那么Thornton的书一定过时4年了。我很失望，胡领导的政治局才是由工程师组成的，而从13年开始，习领导的政治局由律师主导。

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250022
Yes I remember the melamine scandal. Two were executed for it and a dozen or more are still doing time. Nothing to do with the Government.

是的，我记得三聚氰胺丑闻。有两人因此而被处决，10几人或者更多的人还在蹲监狱。政府和这个没有关系。

originalabsence
Indeed. This explains how relocated farmers can get given free a modern sizable apartment hot water widescreen TV and WiFi. Though they then have to find a job or start a local business. I've been told some farmers don't actually earn anything profit wise being entirely subsistent and engaging for like for like bartering though if they can sell food the state now guarantees a fair price. Most get money sent home from migrant family members that is often missing from their statistics.

确实。这也解释了为什么重新安置的农民能够得到政府提供的一套配有热水器、宽屏电视和Wifi的现代公寓。尽管这些人得重新找份工作或在当地从头开始做生意。有些人告诉我一些农民实际上挣不到钱，他们仅能通过等价交换的方式来维持生计。政府也保证以一个公正的价格来收购他们的粮食，如果他们想卖的话。 另外大多数人会收到从他们在外务工的家人那里汇过来的钱，而这些从统计上看不到。

bemusedonaboat
Shenzhen is similar. Just asked my partner what her parents pay per year in rural rent. It's the same as she pays each month in Shenzhen. Buying there is the same as 2 years apartment rent here.

深圳情况也差不多。问问我同伴她父母在农村的年租房费用就知道， 和她在深圳交的月房租一样多，在那里买房的价格和在深圳租房2年的租金总和是一样的。

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originalabsence
Although there are over 200 big cities 48% of the people live in villages and small towns. I'm taking the lower average bandied about of the whole. The Beijing average is about 600 dollars. My Chinese colleagues on the front desk earn that yet live in nice comfortable modern apartments and can afford to travel and save. How they do it I have no idea but they do. I earn three to four times that and Beijing can be expensive as you say. However you could never live in London or New York for 600 dollars a month without state and federal handouts.

尽管中国有200+的大城市，但是仍然有48%的人口居住在农村或小镇里。我是从整体中平均收入较低的人中抽取的数据。北京人均收入600刀，我在前台工作的中国同事也挣这么多，她住着个漂亮舒适的现代公寓楼里，能负担起旅游费用和存点钱。我是一点也不懂她是怎么做到的。我挣到是这个的3，4倍，对我来说，北京的消费和你说的一样贵。但是在伦敦或者纽约，没有州或者政府救济的话，600刀一个月是绝对生存不了的

cghorn
Fact of life Without a demand there will be no supply

事实真相：没有需求就么有供给。

Martin Doyle
Strange how in Australia the business community is in favour of renewable energy; yet our politicians are seen as dinosaurs who believe that coal in man's best friend. The problem is many politicians are driven by ideology and have no respect for scientists they believe God will look after Earth's environment by default without the people needing to lift a finger.

奇怪为什么澳洲商界支持可再生能源。我们的政治家被视为守旧落伍的人，因为他们认为煤炭才是人类最好的朋友。问题在于很多政治家被意识形态驱使，丝毫不尊重科学。他们相信人类不需要出力帮忙，上帝自然而然会照顾好地球环境。

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ajhspain
nearly right we must stop buying then China will stop making it.....
ajhspain

我们停止购买，中国就会停止制造它，这已经很接近事实了。。。

Beyosaurus
His client is dying it has been mutilated raped boiled and toxicated. How would you react if your mother has been subjected to these perversions? Wellin this case it is OUR Mother!!! Expect no mercy from the natural law of cause and effect!

他的客户正在死亡，已被杀死和毒死。如果是您的母亲受到这些偏见，您将如何对待？在这种情况下，这是我们的母亲！不要期望会受到因果关系的自然规律的怜悯！

xiaodarshan
Thank you i shall seek it out.

谢谢，我会弄清楚的。

TommyGuardianReader
China's 'ecological civilisation' concept sounds wholly compatible with Australia's permaculture concept. Permaculture takes the best most effective aspects of human engineering and design and works in partnership with nature rather than seeing humanity as separate from and superior to nature. With support from for example the Indian and Chinese governments and private funding from Branson / Gates philanthropy things might not be as dire as the war mongers and market riggers would have us believe. The new Cannondale Drapac cycling team sponsors have spotted that the key to the future of humanity is in healthy education:

中国的“生态文明”理念完全符合澳大利亚的永续生活理念。 永续生活理念采用了人类工程和设计方面最有效的方面，与自然界合作，而不是将人类视为不同于并优越于自然。 例如，在印度和中国政府，布兰森/盖茨慈善事业的私人资金可能不会像战争者和市场装备人员所认为的那样可怕。 Cannondale Drapac自行车队的赞助人指出人类未来的关键是健康的教育：

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erikus
5000 Ah! A good comrade at the Guardian? Colour me surprised.

5000啊！《卫报》的好同志？我真是惊讶啊。

JamesValencia
I rememebr reading (or seeing - there was a documentary) about a Chinese project to bring vegetation and rain back to a desertified area somewhere in the north. I can't quite remember - this is some years ago - but it might be this:
http://time.com/4851013/china-greening-kubuqi-desert-land-restoration/ It would probably have been on the BBC - if anyone knows what I'm talking about I'd be grateful if they could remind me. Illustrations of cooperation in action.

我记得有篇文章（或者一个纪录片）是关于将植被和降雨带回中国北方某个沙漠地区的项目，我记得不清楚-因为是十几年前的事-但它可能是下面的这篇文章：
也可能在BBC上播过——如果有谁知道我在讲什么，请告诉我，感激不尽。

monkeypack
I do believe the US is capable. But the us has never fought an enemy of the future. When ww2 broke out it took 2 years to be ready. Now they have to be ready but to avoid a war they can't win and they don't see for what since it is not in their faces. Maybe now with the hurricanes raging but generally It is too abstract for people to acknowledge somehow which is really frustrating. And in all reporting about these hurricanes not once you hear or read 'climate change'.

我肯定美国有这个能力但美国从来没有和未来的敌人战斗过。当第二次世界大战爆发时，美国花了两年时间来准备。现在美国人必须得准备了，因为这是一场无法避免的战争，虽然他们并不清楚自己要同什么战斗。也许现在的飓风很令人愤怒。但一般地，承认某些沮丧的事实对人们来说太抽象了而难以理解。总之在关于飓风的报道里是不可能出现“气候变化”这几个字的。

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Jams O'Donnell
Probably the least helpful comment ever.

也许这是迄今为止最无用的评论

Jams O'Donnell
Good of you to point out the most unimportant point in the whole article just in case any of us missed it.

为了防止我们在阅读这篇文章时而略过这个观点，你还特意帮我们指了出来，赞一个。

kizbot
While I do what I can... and its more than many ... unless we drastically and immediately alter our behaviou and become a pist industrial world its just behaviour to make us feel psychologically better isnt it?

当我做我能做的事时···还有更多的要做···除非我们能立刻改变我们的行为并且成为一个后工业世界，不然这行为只是让我们心理上感觉好些，不是吗？

Obfusgator
They prey on civilisation with the blessing of the courts.

他们祈祷用法律使文明降临。

-------------译者：jumpingiruka-审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

JamesValencia
A fascinating article on two fronts: China and Thornton. I've ben thinking for years that there's something most intriguing about China. Most of the world seems quite ignorant about China in its vast complexity. We read "oppression" and "they're all capitalists now" and not much more. Then there are hints as in this article about how it functions: in this case technical experts in charge of technical matters.
Conclusion: I'd really like to know more about China.
I remember saying this years ago : "Guardian can we have a long series of articles looking at how China works?" so I'm saying it again: "Guardian how about a focus on China?"
Fascinating. The other is Thornton: fascinating individual. I suppose Hollywood screenwriters are circling and a biopic can't be far off. Directed by and starring Mr. Expresso man I forget his name (honest too proud to look it up). So thanks - great sunday morning article. Fascinating. Oh and a welcome hint of optimism.这篇文章有二点很精彩：中国和Thornton。

这些年来我一直觉得中国有些很有趣的地方。世界上大多数人似乎没有意识到中国非常复杂。我们只看到了“压迫”和“他们现在都是资本家”。还有一些真正起作用的因素都没有看到，本文提供了一些线索：这件事上由技术专家负责相应的技术事宜。
结论：我真的很想更多地了解中国。
我记得我几年前说过：“卫报能不能有一个专栏详细说明中国运转机制的文章？”所以我再说一遍：“卫报能不能对中国更关注一些？”
另外迷人的就是Thornton：这是一个很有魅力的人。我想好莱坞编剧们不久就会追着求着写他的传记了。由Expresso先生导演和主演，我忘了他的名字（老实说，他太有名，不需要去查大家就知道他的名字）。所以谢谢-在星期日早上刊出了这么一篇有趣的文章。太赞了。哦，对了，还有其中涉及的令人愉悦的乐观主义。