为什么战后和解在东亚失败了 [日本媒体]

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-------------译者：WuChien-审核者：bluebit------------



The legacy of World War II continues to loom over East Asian politics, as claims and counterclaims about Japanese culpability and punishment dominate the popular conversation between China, Korea, and Japan.

二战遗留问题依然存在与东亚政治事物中，对于日本罪行要求索赔及日本的反击一直是中国，韩国，日本三国对话中最热门的话题。


-------------译者：love_fyf-审核者：Cier------------

Valkyrie • 2 days ago
Reconciliation failed in Asia because China and a lesser extent korea don't want let go of the past. They need Japan to be demonized in order to cover up for their own society.
Asian countries are still primitive in that regard because they can't see the bigger picture. China is probably the biggest primitive country in the world. China can't even look at its own history and question its own leaders in a reflective manner! So it's no surprised to me that primitive chinese and Koreans can't let go of their hatred. Militarists who ran imperial Japan were foolish and cruel but today's Japan is no longer ruled by these people. Chinese and korean hatred for Japan is misguided and misdirected.
It makes more sense if Koreans and chinese can go back in time to fight imperial Japan because today's japanese have no desire or motivation for a war of conquest.

 和解在亚洲失败是因为中国和韩国（程度小一点）不愿放下过去。 他们需要日本被妖魔化来掩盖他们自己的社会问题。亚洲国家在这方面仍然没有开化因为他们目光狭隘。中国可能是世界上最大的未开化国家。中国甚至不能以一种反省的态度来看待自己的历史和质疑他自己的领导人。所以未开化的中国人和韩国人不能放下他们的仇恨我一点也不惊讶。统治日本帝国的军国主义者愚蠢且残暴但是今天的日本不再是在这些人的统治之下了。中国人和韩国人对日本的仇恨是被误导的。如果韩国人和中国人能回到过去与日本帝国战斗会更加的有意义，因为今天的日本人没有欲望和动机去发动征服战争。（译完这篇我对这位小哥只能呵呵了）
 
Vevoli  Valkyrie • a day ago
Today's Japan is run by the direct offspring of imperialist militarists that started the Pacific War. Japan has failed to reconcile with its neighbors because it lacks the moral fiber to do so, unlike Germany.

今天的日本是在那些发动太平洋战争的帝国主义者和军国主义者的直系后代的统治之下。日本没有能和它的邻居和解是因为它不像德国那样具有进行和解的道德要素。

-------------译者：驾青鸟揽婵娟-审核者：bluebit------------

TV Monitor  Vevoli • 6 hours ago
Vevoli
Worse, Abe wants to restore the honors of Tojo Hideki and his grandfather, and the only way to do this is to deny the atrocity of his ancestors. This is the root of tensions in East Asia.

 更要命的是安倍想给东条老贼和他爷爷恢复所谓荣誉，而唯一的方法就是对他祖宗的暴行矢口否认。这是东亚局势紧张的根本原因
 
Ronald_Reagan_III  Valkyrie • a day ago
" Militarists who ran imperial Japan were foolish and cruel but today's Japan is no longer ruled by these people"
Japan's prime minister is literally the grandson of a cabinet-level minister in the wartime Imperial government. It would be hard to construct a more false statement than this

 “掌握旧日本帝国的军国主义分子残酷而愚蠢，不过今天的日本已经不再由这些人做主了。”
你所说的简直一派胡言，日本首相自己就是个旧日本帝国政府战时内阁部长的孙子。
 
Valkyrie  Ronald_Reagan_III • 12 hours ago
Abe was invited to speak in front of the joint session of Congress. He was also invited to speak in front of the Australian parliament. Such a prestigious and high profile invitation is hardly indicative of an unrepentant war criminal. Did you know Abe was born after WWII? Your silly exaggeration makes no sense and indicates the thinking process of a child.

安倍应邀在国会的联席会议上讲话，除此之外他还被邀请在澳大利亚议会进行演讲。如此重要高调的邀请是不会给予一个死不悔改的战犯的。你知道安倍是二战以后出生的吗？你愚蠢又夸张的说法毫无意义，只让你显得幼稚无比。

-------------译者：驾青鸟揽婵娟-审核者：bluebit------------

ben lu  Ronald_Reagan_III • a day ago
Abe's grand father was actually class A war criminal some got away scot free by US under table dealing with Japan in exchange for some spoilt of wars.

 安倍的爷爷就完全是个甲级战犯，他跟美帝做了黑箱交易，通过补偿战争损失来免除惩罚。
 
Spectator of Geopolitics  Valkyrie • a day ago
China was too primitive that it did not take the WW II and the devastation serious, that is why many of the right wing extremists in Japan want to try their luck for one more time, as there were no perceived penalties for the barbaric invasion of China, but there is one for attacking a military installation, the Pearl Harbor.

 中国当时太落后，没打赢二战且遭到了严重的破坏。这就是许多日本的右翼分子想赌一把的原因——他们入侵中国的野蛮行为没有遭到惩罚。不过他们在珍珠港以后得到了教训。
 
ben lu  Valkyrie • a day ago
Yeah right Japan is free to start ww every 100 years until it rules the whole world.

没错，日本人每一百年就要发动一次世界大战，直到统治整个世界。

-------------译者：驾青鸟揽婵娟-审核者：bluebit------------

firemagnet  Valkyrie • a day ago
"Reconciliation failed in Asia because China and a lesser extent korea don't want let go of the past. They need Japan to be demonized in order to cover up for their own society"
To some extent, although the grievances they have are very much real. Your comment would be valid if the Japanese had offered an itemized apology, however Japanese apologies--the many that they have issued--still remain vague.
Suffice it to say that the whole thing is a mess, and everyone is to blame in some way.

 “亚洲的和解失败是因为中韩在一定程度上不想放下过去，他们需要妖魔化日本以掩盖自己的社会问题。”
尽管某种程度上是这样的，但是他们的不满都是情有可原。如果日本人逐项道歉的话你说的有道理。可是日本发布的道歉声明仍然模糊不堪。
我只想说整个事情都是一团槽。某种意义上所有人都有责任。
 
TV Monitor  Valkyrie • 6 hours ago
Valkyrie
today's Japan is no longer ruled by these people.
You are so wrong.

今天的日本不再由这些人统治。
你错了。

-------------译者：驾青鸟揽婵娟-审核者：bluebit------------

Bob Bob • 3 days ago
As long as China remains a communist dictatorship with no freedom of speech or thought, they will continue to demonize Japan for any problems in the world.
As long as North Korea exists, the ROK will continue to bash Japan since that is their only way to out-minjok the Minjok to the north.
It really is that simple.

 只要天朝仍然是个没有言论自由和思想自由的共产主义独裁国家，她就将继续妖魔化日本在世界上的任何问题。
只要朝鲜存在，韩国就会继续抨击日本。因为这是他们唯一取悦并统战北边的方法。
就是这么简单
 
Bobserver  Bob Bob • 2 days ago
Simple, only in your mind.
It's not demonization if the Japanese were actually that vicious during WWII and before not just to the Chinese but also the Koreans, S.E. Asians and any prisoners of war. For the Japanese to portray their late 19th century till end of WWII expansion as a way of saving Asia from European and American colonialism is disingenuous. No Asian country asked for the Japanese to conquer then as a way of saving them from Western colonization. Then there are the war crimes that the Japanese insist on denying such as the "Rape of Nanjing", medical experiments on prisoners of war, "comfort" women, biological and chemical warfare (whose supplies are still been cleared up in China), etc.

（回上面的）简单的是你的脑袋。
日本人在二战期间罪行罄竹难书，根本不用妖魔化。日本人的暴行不仅是中国人，还有韩国人，其他的亚洲人和所有的战俘。十九世纪末到二战结束，日本人虚伪的以保护亚洲免受欧美列强殖民主义侵害的救世主自诩。可没有亚洲国家请求日本人征服他们从而免受西方的殖民。还有日本人对战争罪行的否认，比如南京大屠杀，对战俘的医学实验，慰安妇问题以及化学战（其化学战剂在中国流毒至今），等等。

-------------译者：驾青鸟揽婵娟-审核者：bluebit------------

Austronesian_Pacific  Bobserver • a day ago
"For the Japanese to portray their late 19th century till end of WWII expansion as a way of saving Asia from European and American colonialism is disingenuous"
You mean WAS disingenuous. You can't be stating that Japan still claims this, surely? I thought that was China's latest claim... you know, Asia for Asians.
I had one Grandfather fight the Germans and Italians, while another fought as a guerrilla after regular troops surrendered in the Philippines, his wife having the displeasure of watching Japanese soldiers toss children in the air that they found hiding in Manila, then bayonet them in front of their mothers.
With this in mind, why did the first Grandfather I mention have respect for Germans.... while the second Grandfather, later gave blessing to his daughter to marry a Japanese man? Why can these two people, both seriously wounded during battle, who's direct family endured the war, hold no grudge... even forgive?
More importantly, why CAN'T China or Korea. The have no rationale to maintain any form of hatred. I would say at this point, "Get Over It", but that's just the point isn't it... China and Korea have this 'grief' as a construct, it is not rooted in anything rational. It's a POLICY. Sad isn't it?

“日本人自称自己在十九世纪晚期到二战结束的时间内，从欧美列强的殖民魔爪中拯救亚洲的说法是虚伪的。”
你应该说曾经是虚伪的。你不能说日本现在仍然宣称要如此，不是吗？我倒以为这是天朝最新的要求……你知道的，亚洲版的门罗主义。
我有一个爷爷跟德国佬和意大利佬干过仗，另一个爷爷在官军投降了以后在菲律宾的丛林里当游击队。他的妻子有过目睹日军士兵在马尼拉投掷儿童并在母亲跟前将他们用刺刀杀害的不愉快经历。
尽管有上面的经历，为什么我的第一个祖父就像我提到的一样尊重德国，而第二个爷爷祝福他女儿同一个日本人的婚礼呢？为什么这两个都在战争中受过创伤，家人都被卷入战争的人没有选择怨恨，却是原谅呢？
更重要的是，为什么中国或者韩国不能如此？他们没有理由保持任何形式的仇恨。我想说的是一点：“克服”，不过它仅仅是个道理不是吗……中国和韩国用悲伤这种非植根与理性的东西来作为政策的结构，难道不让人伤心吗？

-------------译者：Cier-审核者：bluebit------------

Bobserver  Austronesian_Pacific • 21 hours ago
Disingenuous on your part and the refusal on your part to deal with facts is irrationality personified. And stop changing your moniker on this site to pretend that there are more people with your point of view.
What is sadder is that Japan provides revisionist text books to Japanese school children furthering the myth of Japan as victim; that Shinzo Abe, many of his cabinet and party members pay homage to the Yasukuni shrine with Class A war criminals interred there; Japan's government's refusal to acknowledge the seriousness of the war crimes such as the "Rape of Nanjing"; denying the used of forced prostitution by the Japanese military in China, Korea, S.E..Asian countries, etc and the refusal to officially compensate the survivors and their families; the tardiness on Japan's part to clean up biological and chemical warfare supplies left behind in China; etc.
No, Japan's mishandling of history is affecting the USA's ability to hold together the USA-Japan-S. Korea pact to contain China and Russia in Asia. In fact the disgust by both China and S.Korea at current Japanese imperial revisionism has actually brought China and S. Korea closer together. And no amount of Japanese revisionism and playing hard-done victim is going to convince the Russians to release the Kurile Islands to Japan. The Russians lost their Far east fleet to a sneak attack by Japan in 1904 and faced off against the Japanese in the Far East during WWII and know the latter's cruelty and ruthlessness. They will hold on to those islands for both compensation purposes and for the islands strategic value.

虚伪地拒绝承认事实是非理性的具体表现。别以为换了马甲就没人认得出来。
悲伤的是，日本的学龄儿童们成了日本提供的那些对日本神话进行修正后的读本的牺牲品；安倍晋三跟他的许多内阁成员跑到埋葬着甲级战犯的靖国神厕祭奠；日本政府拒绝承认如南京大屠杀这类战争罪行的严重性；拒绝承认日本军队在中国、韩国、东南亚国家强征慰安妇，拒绝正式赔偿的幸存者和他们的家人；还在中国遗留了大堆生化武器至今没回收等等。
不，日本总是妄想自己有多大的魅力能通过影响美国来维系美日韩协议，进而在亚洲遏制中国和俄罗斯。事实上，出于对目前的日本帝国主义和修正主义的厌恶，中国和韩国反而更加紧密联系在一起。越来越多的的日本修正主义者努力表现得自己才是受害者，试图去说服俄罗斯把千岛群岛还给日本。由于日本1904年偷袭，俄罗斯人失去了远东舰队，二战期间与日本在远东的作战期间才知道后者的残忍冷酷到了个怎样的程度。这些岛屿的战略价值重大，他们非握在手里不可。

-------------译者：驾青鸟揽婵娟-审核者：bluebit------------

tteng  Bob Bob • 2 days ago
Let me ask you a question:
Your explanation for the inability of ROK, to reconcile with Japan, is that its nationalism can't prevail over its democratic value to overcome its anti-Japan bias. Therefore, you are implying that: being a democracy is not a cure-all either (i.e. that Koreans are still free to badmouth and ill think of Japan).
So how can you be sure a democratic China (which you will support obviously because it is no longer a communist dictatorship) will let go its grievance and bias?
Not simple, is it?

让我问你一个问题：
在你的解释中韩国难以同日本和解是因为它的民族主义无法超过其民主价值观以胜过其反日的偏见。因此你在暗示民主并不是万金油（即：韩国人仍然自由自在的说日本坏话）。
所以你怎么能确定一个民主的中国（你将同意这种说法因为她不再是一个共产主义独裁国家）将会放弃她的申诉与偏见？
这并不简单，是吧？

-------------译者：k966sc-审核者：bluebit------------

Bob Bob  tteng • 2 days ago
I feel ROK has many challenges - the main one being North Korea and it's propaganda as being defenders of the Minjok race and not occupied by American troops. ROK uses anti-Japan narrative(which began with Sygman Rhee when South Korea was a dictatorship) in order to counter this propaganda because that is the safe choice.
There are glimmers of hope though because in the late 90s, ROK removed the ban against Japanese media, literature and culture to come into the country. As a result the new generation of South Koreans are not as brainwashed as their parents who grew up during the military dictatorships. For instance Haruki Murakami has a huge following in ROK as well as anime and so on. One can only hope.

我觉得韩国面临着很多挑战：最主要的一个就是北朝鲜，他们将自己宣传成抵抗美国入侵的防卫者。韩国则用抗日的事迹（从李承晚的独裁时期就开始了）来反击，因为这么做很保险。
曾经有过转变的希望，90年代末韩国移除了日本媒体，文学和文化传入的禁令。因此韩国的新世代的思想和他们生在军事独裁时期的父母比起来要好了不少。比如说村上春树就在韩国很受欢迎，还有动漫和其他的。你只能寄托希望。

ROK will have to do soul searching and internal debate on a more reasonable view of history due to free speech issues and the openness of the internet. For instance the recent defamation case against Professor Park Yu-Ha and her challenge of the ROK standard narrative of comfort woman is opening up dialogue and debate. I have heard that there are many academics in Korea, Japan and USA who have condemned this attack against free speech. Hopefully this case will get more people talking and debating.
As for democratic China, you only need to look at Taiwan where they have not made it their mission to use anti-Japanese propaganda for their national identity. Taiwan is friendly with Japan with a vast majority of Taiwanese having an excellent view of Japan.
One can only hope if China gains democracy and freedom of speech and scraps it's patriotic education propaganda system, they can become more like Taiwan.

韩国需要反省并在讨论一下如何更合理的看待历史，因为有言论自由和互联网开放。例如最近针对朴裕河教授的诽谤事件，还有她对韩国对于慰安妇看法的质疑展开了对话和辩论。我听说韩国，日本和美国的很多学院断定这是对言论自由的攻击。希望这件事能够更广泛的被关注。
至于中国民主化，你只用看看台湾，他们没有为了获得民族认同而做反日宣传。台湾和日本很友好并且很多台湾人在对日本的看法上很有见解。
你只能寄托希望于中国得到民主和言论自由，抛弃他们的爱国宣传教育系统，然后才能变得像台湾一样。
 
-------------译者：k966sc-审核者：bluebit------------

tteng  Bob Bob • 2 days ago
So, basically you are saying parochial nationalism/tribalism trumps universal democratic values- since '70 years of indirect/direct democratic influence in ROK can't overcome 50 years of Japanese colonialism in Korea'. Again, you are saying 'democracy' is not a cure-all, that free people can freely choose to hate. Hence, there is no guarantee a democratic China can turn out like Taiwan in their attitude towards Japan (what if it's like ROK, since China did suffer from its brutal WW2 experience) Therefore, your mention of 'dictatorial communist' is not an apt one for preface.

所以你说的“在韩国70年的间接/直接民主影响无法客服日本50年殖民的影响”指的是狭隘民族主义/部落主义要胜过普世民主价值。其次，你说“民主”不是万灵药，自由也包括了仇恨的自由。因此，没人可以保证中国民主化后会将他们对日本的态度转变的像台湾那样（并且因为中国在二战曾遭受过残酷的对待，弄不好会变成韩国那样）所以你提到的“独裁共产”并不是很妥当
 
Bob Bob  tteng • 2 days ago
The root of the problem is the dictatorship, propaganda and lack of freedom of speech and access to free information which always exists under communists regimes like PRC. ROK still had these qualities during it's own decades of military dictatorships. Did you know that Japanese literature, media, and music was banned in ROK until the late 90s? Even the Park Yu-Ha case is illustrative. An academic like her would never be charged with "defamation" in an open society like Japan or the USA. So ROK still has growing pains.
 
China will not instantly become a good nation after CCP is destroyed since it has been poisoned with CCP propaganda for so long, it will take time and generations perhaps but this is a necessary condition before it can happen. To cure the disease first you must cut out the rot.

问题的根源正是像中国这样共产主义政权，独裁专政，洗脑宣传，缺乏言论自由和信息自由。韩国在20多年的军事独裁时期依然保持了这些品质。你知道日本的文学，媒体和音乐在90年代的韩国都是被禁的吗？朴裕河的例子就可以证明。她那样的学者绝不会在像日本和美国那样开放的社会被控“诽谤中伤”。所以说韩国还有很长一条路要走。
因为被共产党的宣传毒害了太久，就算共产党完蛋了中国也可能需要几代人的时间才会变成一个好国家，但这是无法跳过的。治病必须除根。

-------------译者：k966sc-审核者：bluebit------------

tteng  Bob Bob • a day ago
In addition, VN is a communist dictatorship with no freedom of speech or thought. VN and Japan seem to get along just fine.
My point: 'Communist dictatorship, or freedom of speech and thought' is not a criteria for love/hate relationship towards Japan by China and ROK.

另外，越南是没有言论和思想自由的共产主义独裁国家。和日本看起来挺合得来的。
我的观点是：不管是共产主义独裁，还是言论和思想自由都不是日本中国和韩国之间复杂关系的条件

nannenor • 2 days ago
And US willingly exchanged the research from Japanese Unit 731 who did horrible things to humans with a full pardon so that the war criminals could stay unpunished. The failure to see that this was morally wrong tells the story of racism within US army. The life of yellow people was not worth anything to the US troops and there were no interest to punish people for war crimes. When will US consider others lives as valuable as their own i wonder?

美国还愿意赦免731部队所犯下暴行以换取他们的研究成果呢。违背良知还视而不见告诉我们美军有种族歧视观念。黄种人的生命对美军不值一提，对惩罚战争罪行也丝毫不感兴趣。我很好奇什么时候美国会开始觉得其他的生命和他们自己的一样珍贵呢？

-------------译者：k966sc-审核者：bluebit------------

jetcal1  nannenor • 9 hours ago
The same accusations could be leveled at the PLA treatment of American POW during Korea.
To impy that one side is more horrific than another during a war is somewhat knieve.
Additionally, I would like to know. Does the treatment by the Japanese of the countries they invaded gets a pass since they weren't white?
(That question almost makes your post thay I am responding to sound racist, doesn't it?)

同样的指责也可以指向解放军在韩国的时候是怎么对待美国战俘的。试图暗示在战争中一方比另一方更残暴太天真了。另外，我很想知道。只因为日本侵略过的是非白人国家所以他们做过的事就可以过往不究吗？
（这个问题是不是让你的回帖看起来有种族歧视的感觉？ ）
 
nannenor  jetcal1 • 7 hours ago
Without doubt is there warcrimes on both sides in every conflict. The funny thing is that we never hear about any crimes done by certain civilizations, they are forgotten quickly and was always done with the best intentions. Western nations have our fair share of genocide, ethnic clensing, racism, torture and mass murders to remember and so had every other nation on earth. And we all do what we can to make sure nobody remembers those crimes so that we can pretend to be on moral high ground.

无需置疑在任何冲突中的双方都会犯下战争罪行。有意思的是我们从没听过有哪个平民犯了什么罪，这些坏事很快就被忘记并且都是带着善意而作的。西方国家在种族灭绝，种族清洗，种族注意，严刑拷打和集体屠杀也有一份，这不能忘记，就像地球上所有其他国家一样。我们会做任何事来确保没有人记得这些罪行然后就可以假装站在道德的制高点了。

-------------译者：k966sc-审核者：bluebit------------

Endhypocrisy • 2 days ago
Germany and France were bitter enemies during WW1 & WW2. Why has the Germans and French reconciled and the Japanese and Chinese not? The reason is that the Japanese did not act like the Germans after WW2 hence the Chinese cannot and will not act like the French. The victims cannot accept the circumstances that the aggressor never advised their citizens about the horrors they committed. I wonder how many Japanese know of the horrors they committed in WW2?

德国和法国在两次世界大战期间曾是死对头。为什么德国和法国和解了而日本和中国没有？原因是日本在战后没有做德国做过的事因此中国也不会做法国做的事。受害者们无法接受侵略者不向自己国民坦白事实。我很好奇有多少日本人知道他们在二战时做过的暴行

Redmond  Endhypocrisy • 2 days ago
Japan did act like Germany after WW2. Otherwise, the rest of South East Asia wouldn't have reconciled with it. Only China's CCP finds it necessary not to reconcile for obvious reasons. Demonizing Japan is very important for the CCP's self-preservation. They demonize America and Russia too.They need lots of demonizing as a balm to Mao's embarassing legacy.

日本在战后有像德国一样。不然东南亚各国也不会与其和解。只有中国的政党为了某些理由才不愿和解。魔化日本对共产党的自保至关重要。他们同样魔化美国和俄国。他们还需要魔化很多东西才能掩盖毛所做的尴尬事

Endhypocrisy  Redmond • a day ago
China waivered their request on Japanese repartitions in an effort to solidify a relationship where the Japanese will not white wash their history. This did not happen!! The Philippines got no repartitions because they were still a USA colony. Repartitions waivered but Japanese history books still claim Japan was not the aggressor. I don't know what they teach at the university of Manila.

中国为了在日本不洗白历史的前提下巩固和日本的关系而放弃了分割日本的领土。但是未能如愿！菲律宾那时仍是美国的殖民地所以没得到割地。割地免除了但日本的历史书仍然声称日本不是侵略者。我不知道他们在马尼拉大学里是怎么说的